The Maschine 4 (Speculative) Thread
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Meanwhile, I'm using my M+ a little more these days.
It's such a gem...
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Polyend had a half price Tracker sale recently, but after a few days they returned to full price. I think many thought it meant the mk2 was ready to drop, but probably just clearing a bit of over stock.
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Over the last 3–4 years, NI have carefully curated a far from healthy belligerence towards Maschine users, for whatever reason(s). The fact that they appear to be doing so well in spite of themselves is probably one of lifes great wonderments. They can hardly be unaware that the MK3 is just as good today as it was when it was introduced, but it's coupled to software that far from being the future of sound wouldn't even make it as far as being retro in some cases.
Most would gladly pay for it to be updated if it was a proper upgrade that addressed the overwhelming amount of issues and fixed the mess they've made of it.
Who would pay for a MK4 that was stuck with the same inefficient mess it has become software wise. 8 minute load times, and they can't fix it..................now doesn't that call for a vote of confidence....................
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Companies do understand. Selling software will almost always have a larger ROI than selling hardware. Simply because there is zero cost to duplicate and distribute software.
The problem is the customers. More customers are willing to shell out large amounts of money for hardware, than to pay anything for software. If it’s not tangible, it’s worthless. A hilarious mindset for creators of non-tangible art (aka musicians).
Just look at the reaction to software subscription models: They are hated and seen as the most evil idea since the invention of slavery. But IMO subscription models are a very honest and fair system. The customer pays for using a non-tangible good while the producer gets paid for maintaining it. The customer can cancel the subscription anytime, which motivates the producer to develop and improve the goods in order to keep the customer interested and subscriptions running. The producer gets a constant income stream, which allows to continuously work on new ideas as well as less flashy features and important improvements.
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I almost start feeling a little bit down every time I come here for news, or to see if i'm added to the beta group. It feels like many have taken the red pill and become broken by a reality that they feel stuck in. I kinda get it when I see some of the problems in the real world, but we live in a golden age of great gear and I feel really blessed to be in this gear age coming from an Akai S20 in the mid 90's, which was my first proper 'finished' music making machine.
I am really happy with the M+, whereas I barely used my MK3, so not sure I would go for a MK4 even if it appeared to be much better than a MK3, just because the best feature for me in the Maschine line up is the ability to use the + without having a computer connected. I would probably be making music on it right now, but for coming here for news and to see if i've been added to the beta.
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What we were saying is the opposite: we would love to pay for SW upgrades (which, as you say will not even cost them for the new hw duplication/distribution).
Anyway…about subscriptions: see how things can be seen in different ways? I have exactly the opposite view of yours. With subscriptions, you are forced to pay them even only to continue using the product or accessing what you created with it, while with payed updates they are forced to offer you something better or new interesting features, otherwise you’ll simply not buy the new version and continue to use what you already have (unless they cripple it and make it slowly unusable 😏). That’s why industry is so interested in them: it’s sure money no matter what they do. What you really can “cancel anytime” is buying new version, since you already have what you need and they don’t offer enough in the new one. Canceling subscriptions means not having access to anything anymore
Different angles, different views. But frankly I find hard to understand yours: what would force them to innovate, if you have to pay them anyway just to use it?
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I suspect that the problem for people like me and you is that they inherited a damn’d good product that we love so much. And even their mistreating it is not enough for blind lovers like us to abandon it.
And sadly…MANY would pay for an MK4, even if not well done. GAS is sadly reality. See the case of the new Komplete MK3: not finished HW, not finished SW to go with. But people are not even thinking “ok, I’ll buy it when it will have the functions I need” They even preordered something they didn’t even know what was bringing to the table…
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Just look at the reaction to software subscription models: They are hated and seen as the most evil idea since the invention of slavery. But IMO subscription models are a very honest and fair system. The customer pays for using a non-tangible good while the producer gets paid for maintaining it. The customer can cancel the subscription anytime, which motivates the producer to develop and improve the goods in order to keep the customer interested and subscriptions running. The producer gets a constant income stream, which allows to continuously work on new ideas as well as less flashy features and important improvements.
There are actually some very good reasons why subscriptions are despised and almost seen as slavery.
Having optional subscriptions, rent to own and perpetual licences is arguably the fairest solution as most options are catered for, The problem with subscription only models is that in the majority of cases no subscription means no usage, not only can you not edit what you've worked on, you can't even open your files.
The argument that it encourages development falls flat in that there is often decreased development in subscription only models, as there's no incentive to do more than will stop people leaving.
Look at the costs of usage for users once Adobe and Autodesk went subscription only, and it wasn't benevolence or user-friendliness driving that decision.
You want a good return......make good products and foster a good relationship with your consumers isn't in my mind a bad approach.
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I hope I don't have to provide empirical evidence when I say many do not enjoy/want subscriptions. It really depends on whose perspective you are asking this proposition.
Paying for hardware when software gives more mileage and value - happens all the time, think Eurorack users. However, as analogue beings ourselves, there is no replacement for that tactile feel and control - I challenge you to prove otherwise. Hence, hardware will always have a place for things in the real (non-digital) space.
If a MK4 can give something meaningful/new (again depending on perspective), sure why not and if it sells (justifiably so or not), that would be something any bottom-line watching company would do. To talk ethics and morals on the Interwebs is a slippery slope that I would always try to stay away from.
Let's imagine a bit more. MK4 should have the KK MK3 screen, some CV outs, a row of 16-elektron style buttons at the bottom, fast step parameter locking, low latency BT audio/midi, "something-G" wireless, a session view launcher, more advance sequencer options, more modulation possibilities and of course that logical GUI to understand what was being manipulated. I fear (and guess) that the Maschine will continue as a "preset seller" device for NI.
Wondered if the standalone product line should continue with a M+ MK2 or focusing on its roots is the better option for NI and also if the "person" who decided that M+ should be produced with such miserable hardware specifications, namely RAM and CPU, is still around to make things worse for NI.
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The ethics and morals of environmental science are no "slippery slope" to avoid unless you are suicidal, and want to take others with you. The science is clear, it is non-ideological & political, and we have to act on it TEN YEARS AGO, before the earth warms up too much to reverse. This isnt even complicated.
And of course, like most everything else the wealthy western world needs to dispose of, the imminent damage to the ecosystem concentrates in the global south in the looted, exploited remains of the colonized world. Some western governments, unable to figure out what to do what the insane amounts of trash that pile up every day, have begun paying "3rd world" countries to dispose of it for them. Or they just dump it in the ocean.
As a parent of 2 young children, this is all very, very real to me, and my love of music and electronic instruments will inevitably have to take a back seat to ethical, sustainable living.
And this is beyond the exploitative economics of subscription models, etc, which are discussed as a "value-add" for customers but are just a more reliable income stream for investors. Any "value-add" to customers will evaporate when the buyer's market turns to the seller's market, as it always does.
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The Komplete MK2 b stock price dropped just a few days before the Komplete mk3 was released.
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It didn't take much reading between the lines of the Kontrol Q&A to see that there will be no Maschine hardware any time soon.. I'd bet on 2025 or later..
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Basically, as a Maschine MK3 user, I would even welcome the fact that there is no MK4 initially. Due to the fact that the Komplete Kontrol MK3 software will be largely functionally restricted until at least the end of 2024, as the company's internal prioritization of the built-in functions would most likely destroy the machine completely.
If an MK4 ever appears, it will have to support the new framework. This would mean a catastrophe for Machine 2 at the moment.
If I look at my workflow, I only use an SL MK2 for central browsing. Because it is centrally located, right in front of me and within reach. My machine MK3 is to my right. In conjunction with Maschinen 2, for me the MK3 is just a scene changer, DAW controller or for drums and percussion. I control everything else from the SL MK2. Because it's ergonomic and I don't have to constantly turn to the side. But this is another topic again.
Why do I use Maschine 2 instead of KK?
- Because the integration with KK is worlds better
- Because I can't automate FX chains in KK
- Because KK NKS2 MK3 is now unusable
To be honest, I don't even expect updates for machine 2 in conjunction with MK3 anymore, not even with MK4 machine.
In the long term, both options have actually been taken away from me and there is no alternative either.
A pity.
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A mk4 with a single large screen to match the new KK is the obvious play from NI , but i do think there may be a reason to “decouple” them in a way.
i had a kk mk2 and i returned it because i had my Maschine right next to it and the same exact 2 screens on the kk felt way too redundant. I ended up replacing it with a basic midi keyboard. I feel like lots/most kk users use a different daw so that might be the reason Maschine integration isn’t the highest priority or a priority at all. Perhaps the next version of the A series will instead integrate better with Maschine for this reason. Or Maschine will allow scales/chords on other midi controllers.
That way if you use another daw, get KK as your way into the NI ecosystem. Maschine is another way, and you won’t need to necessarily have kk s-series also to get the full experience. More people use other daws so i understand appealing to those customers first and perhaps as their own segment. This is why i can also see less of an incentive to make a mk4 to match the new kk. And hopefully more focus on the Maschine sw/mk3/plus
All just guesses but stuff that just crossed my mind
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I'd be fine with this if new features were added on the regular. Or even look at what Akai is doing. Selling plugins for the MPC/Force machines. Generates revenue to further develop the product. I think Akai's prices are a little high personally, but I'd be happy to pay for better Reaktor integration and more instruments ported over, Guitar Rig effects, etc. Just no more sample packs. Never understood the draw for those. 90% of the time I want to sample my own sounds and create my own presets...
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