Status on m1/m2 update?
Comments
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I guess VST3 and AS native is already ready. Maybe for months. Just NI has decided to release it in Komplete 14 and not sooner.
My bet is that delay does not have technological roots, but economical. AS transition is costly. Developers must reduce costs (VST, AS and K14 in single release).... And maybe somehow motivate users to buy K14 ASAP, e.g. for full upgrade price. My guess is there will be major releases of some products and the older versions will not get AS and maybe even VST3....
Reaktor might be different story. It may take longer....
We will see, hopefully, more in 5-10 weeks....
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<rant>
It seems to me a lot of people reading this thread are only seeing the bits that most disagree or agree with them. AFAI am concerned, Maciej Repetowski is on the nail, and I (don't use Traktor and am just a dabbling hobbyist) can see a time where the portfolio splits into chunks — kept up to date as it can be at low cost and sells, then the rest.
To a large extent it's already Kontakt and the various connected items (Play Series, Studio Guitarist...) and Maschine Expansions which are the bread and butter, very widely used (Kontakt) and able to allow outside sources to deliver content to sell through. I can see a time when Komplete bundles go the way of the dodo as they get ever more bloated with dead wood and great ideas never taken forward as only new stuff sells.
As to Soundwide I wait to be impressed. The inclusions of Plugin Alliance at a point where it seems they've produced lots of great plugins, but are now mining variations of a theme and approaching a Waves level of daily sails as the ownership changes seems to also remove the drive to fix technical debt.
It's odd watching the NI plugins appear on the PA store, to me the price points look risible for the age of some of the items and what's needed is a visible strategy.
In the end it's a market, and purity of position on technology is a luxury compared to actual reality. People will vote with their wallets, rowing about 'it's all X's fault' when we don't see behind the scenes is what will out.
</endrant>
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But NI also has huge technological debt and ancient codebase and frameworks. So who should we blame for years of lack of HiDPI and VST3 for PC, also Apple?
NI has huge technical debt because NI has some very old products with very old codebases. It comes with the territory. That means they have some old products that can only be profitable with small maintenance teams, but at the same time changes take more work and cost more resources... the result is updates are infrequent, and it takes much longer to react to things like AS. It's just the nature of a 'mature' product like Reaktor.
I guess over the years, they could have spent more money on Reaktor to keep the codebase in better order, but then that would have been more expensive and might have resulted in Reaktor being cancelled many years ago due to unprofitability.
Sadly, transitioning to a completely new platform forced upon the industry by Apple probably means that stuff like HiDPI and VST3 will take even longer... unless they decided to incorporate those and other changes at the same time in the context of a large re-write... I seriously doubt it, but fingers crossed!
I get that you are anti-Apple, many PC users are. But a bit of objectivity wouldn’t really hurt…
If what I've said here makes me anti Apple, then what you've said must make you anti Native Instruments, at least I'm on the right forum ;)
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People were asking about HiDPI and VST3 for PCs (and Macs) for at least several years now. Apple’s new processors are only since 2020. What was NI’s excuse before?
NI have had problems with its codebase also in regards of PC platform for many years now. Which you have conveniently omitted from your posts. In your posts it’s all “because of Apple”.
My point is that blaming EVERYTHING about NI on Apple is not even remotely true. That’s why I’ve asked for objectivism…
I repeat: NI has been slow to update their products on both PC and Mac platform for many years now, both from the technical point of view (HiDPI and VST3) and from “feature requests” point of view.
If stating this makes me anti-NI, then so be it.
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People were asking about HiDPI and VST3 for PCs (and Macs) for at least several years now. Apple’s new processors are only since 2020. What was NI’s excuse before?
I don't think NI have made any excuses. Just their usual response - they want to do it, and hopefully will do at some point in the future, but no promises.
NI have had problems with its codebase also in regards of PC platform for many years now. Which you have conveniently omitted from your posts. In your posts it’s all “because of Apple”.
NI have problems with a very old codebase on a very old application. I haven't 'omitted' this. It doesn't change the facts of this debate. You are just trying to steer the discussion away from the relevant facts towards a different argument that nobody disagrees with.
You seem to be implying that I am blaming all problems with NI and Reaktor on Apple, which is patently ridiculous. please stick to the discussion we are actually having :)
Point is that Apple have introduced a new hardware platform, and NI for various legitimate reasons are taking longer to port Reaktor than some of their competitors have taken to port their quite different applications.
I don't really blame anyone for this. I don't think that's a sensible way to look at it. I've already stated that I think a move to ARM is probably a good thing, and that Apple are one of the few companies big enough to make it stick.
The problem here is that there are folk who do clearly need someone to blame, they believe they are entitled to the thing they want, right now, and if that's not happening, someone needs to be blamed, and they have decided that NI are guilty in some way. I'm saying to them that _they_ should go blame Apple.
If this makes me an Apple hater - so be it ;)
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The irony becomes when being anti-Apple makes you anti-NI.
Apple isn’t slowing NI (in fact anybody) but pushing forward stagnated x86 intel field. ARM and Ryzen are both answer to that problem but completely different approaches. Whole computer insdustry is moving into ARM and Apple is the only brand offering solutions in all segments (aside Linux which NI’s software isn’t available outside embed solutions like M+ or wine approaches.
Blame Intel for that and also MS if this delays any NI development. If AS helps in any way to this MS transition then give thanks Apple by forcing it in first place.
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There is a logical fallacy in saying that the blame for lack of M1 native code in timely fashion lays with Apple, because they introduced new type of CPU, thus making life difficult for developers.
By that (flawed) logic, for lack of NI VST3 compatibility (10 years after Steinberg declared depreciation of VST2) we should blame Steinberg (and not NI) and for lack of HiDPI in nearly all NI software, we should blame monitor manufacturers :)
Microsoft will do the same thing like Apple eventually , they are testing waters with ARM and eventually they will force universal binary Win code on developers, it’s just a matter of time when they will become fed up with lack of native ARM Windows apps.
Nvidia wanted so badly to purchase ARM, easy to guess why. But here we have little x86 “don’t change it if it works” club ;)
According to many people here, anytime a technological change of any kind comes, other companies are to be blamed and not NI for lack of timely compatibility. Sorry, but no.
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There is a logical fallacy in saying that the blame for lack of M1 native code in timely fashion lays with Apple, because they introduced new type of CPU, thus making life difficult for developers.
There's yet another straw man
There should be no 'blame' here. It's the Apple users that are demanding to blame someone (If they must, then they they should blame Apple). I'm sure, given the circumstances, that the AS native port of Reaktor will arrive in a timely fashion. They will get it out as soon as possible. Everything else is on hold Reaktor wise, AS is the number one priority. It will be as timely possible.
The facts:
*Apple have introduced a new hardware Platform
*NI have an old product with a large and ancient code base. It is also particularly difficult to port, due to being compiler based
*NI are throwing all their Reaktor resources at getting it done ASAP
*it will be ready as soon as possible
*this is not good enough for some Apple users
Apple users are 'calling out' NI, being negative on the NI forum, and generally being unwilling to accept that this is an (hopefully short term) Apple problem. It's also an NI problem, but not one of their own making (they had enough of those already).
Apple users need to accept that Apple's decision to change the hardware means that some applications will take longer to be ported. This is an inevitable consequence of a new hardware platform... it's not about 'blame' it's just the way it is. It was a decision by Apple, their roadmap is the 'reason' for the problem, without their decision, there would be no problem. Now it's time for their users to be patient, and thankful that NI and other third parties are choosing to support the new platform.
The problem might (we can't know) have been lessened if NI had a more modern codebase, younger applications, and less interesting technologies, but that's hardly a reason to start blaming them for something that they had no control over.
It doesn't matter how you try and frame this or what narrative you try and spin around it, all of this is a direct consequence of Apple introducing a new hardware platform. If *you* must apportion blame *you* cannot legitimately absolve Apple.
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Yes but no.
NI had Traktor ready for this transition but NI focused on M+ wasting the resources arguing they were “aware” when users pointed it in the old forum. That 2 year hiatus with lay off in between is the delay we had now.
Anything else are excuses and the worst part is that lack of optimization also hits what can go inside M+.
Tme will tell us hiw this ends.
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There is still no getting away from the absolute fact that if Apple hadn't switched to a new hardware platform, there would be no problem. Spin it how you will!
It's probably a good thing long term, but change always brings problems, if you can't be patient and deal with problems, then don't be an early adopter... pretty simple really
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There is a logical fallacy in saying that the blame for lack of M1 native code in timely fashion lays with Apple, because they introduced new type of CPU, thus making life difficult for developers.
OK, and what is TIMELY? Timely is before Rosetta 2 shutdown. It has not happened yet, so NI is TIMELY, so far.
SW should work using Rosetta 2. If it does not work, it is Apple's fault, not NI. If Apple users do not want use Rosetta, it is their choise, not NI fault... It is simple as that.
Such a transition takes 3-4 years. Less than 2 have passed, up to two to go..... Everything is timely and in cosmic order.
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The problem isn’t Apple changing platform. I pointed you MS doing the same. It’s the market stagnation which made brands move from Intel lack of innovation. It’s not about early adopters when a product it’s on the market for more that two years… that’s an eternity in consumer electronics c’mon…
I’m not talking about my personal tastes but as commercial strategy. The only product I was using from NI was Traktor and it’s so outdated by itself than AS support is irrelevant at this point. It was the most advanced in these terms (Traktor Dj2 has Retina, good browser, etc etc) but so simple for regular users (no DVS, no Remix Decks, etc) so NI shutdown it and focus on Traktor Pro 3. Two years later an iPhone app has everything and more…
AS transition means more than just “coding for new CPU platform” and all the delay is common across products. I hope @kubrak is right about Komplete beimg released as AS compliant and everything places properly but I have my doubts and I will not invest in any product until see how they manage this. I was considering D2 or S2mk3 but nop.
Maschine mk3/mikro could be also interesting but not class compliant means no use with iPad (and now with any AS chip until Driver is ready) so another no go for me. Meanwhile an old Vestax pad can work with all due that class compliant compatibility.
If that strategic approach was right… why to lay off the hardware division? That was pre-FF adcquisition… to clean the numbers and make the sale more profitable? So HW division was the problem? Traktor division?
That could mean what others users pointed as “Ni being preset/rompler creator”. It’s that ok for you?
There’s a pattern trying to drop “weight” only halted by new attempts like iZotope integration inide Traktor (hope?) but those pendulumm strategic changes makes me feel “no clear direction”. The missing timelines on roadmaps (when disclosed) and the poor AS support until now meanwhile competency is doing their homework…
@Kubrak about Rosetta, it’s just a tool to give time but brands can rely on it for too long. Apple will discontinue it ASAP and you should not believe their timelines or statements. They were hiding the AS transition until the last moment BUT it’s their usual strategy so brands should be “aware” of these (some of us even pointed time before and bring third party yools for ARM conversion…) because is how Apple works. You can’t “show your hand” so clearly when you are bringing disruption into the table but the hints (technologies);were there. “Back to mac” keynote after long time focusing mostly on iPads… “Quantum leap” keynote when M1 was released pointing similar performance. Whole industry didn’t expect that but even you needed to recognize it amd change your statements.
For me the silence from NI (once again) just points they will be working in hurry to set things in place and delays in M+ updates feels like resources focused on AS but at the same time roadmaps not beimg realistic, mostly by lack of awareness about what AS transition mean when delivered (but stated by board as “under control”)
I’m not early adopter even on iPad technology (I bought mini4 model from 2015 on 2018 or so) but I can see when disruption is happening after missing some of them being to close mindset about them.
As I say usually (and too often) time will tell us and show who was more accurate or not. I want to be wrong sometimes and see miracles happening of course…
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 It’s not about early adopters when a product it’s on the market for more that two years… that’s an eternity in consumer electronics c’mon…
Two years is early adaption in case of total changing the CPU platform. MS has started with ARM on Win many years ago, five, eight.... And almost zerro market penetration... There is not sound reason for change. Disadvantages outweight the profits in most scenarios.
“Quantum leap” keynote when M1 was released pointing similar performance. Whole industry didn’t expect that but even you needed to recognize it amd change your statements.
M1 is OK CPU, but not miracle. It is just marketing hype created by Apple. AMD may perform similar results if on the same node like AS CPU. Soon it will be possible to compare M2 and Zen4 CPUs....
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What would happen if AMD would create Zen ARM processor and Microsoft would make new Surface laptops with it, running WinARM on it and forced developers to provide universal binary Win software from now on? Total market disruption. Sci-Fi? We will see ;)
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In 2 years lots of things can happen or not. 2 examples:
Apple could release 2 iterations of their silicon.
AMD can promise new chips to compite Apple proposals.
NI can release something more than Kontakt for AS.
MS can switch over snapdragon as I linked in few posts before.
The point is what has happened and what could happen. Users buy existing technologies and look for bangxbuck. That’s why Apple users want to NI porting their apps into AS in the minor time lapse possible… because Ableton did it already or Arturia… because Djay Pro being more spec and powerfull than Traktor over an iPhone.
Things happening vs things could happen.
AS is happening and has happened and MUST happen.
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