Status on m1/m2 update?
Comments
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I think it's pretty old. Most other products that are still around and as old as Reaktor are true flagships that are significant to the income and potentially the survival of their developers. I don't think Reaktor really fits into that bracket.
I wish Reaktor was more actively enveloped, but I think it is something of a niche product owned by a company that is actively trying to dominate the mainstream of their market sector. There are lots of Reaktor 'users', but I would guess that many of them are really only Reaktor users as a consequence of being Komplete users, and are unlikely to have bought Reaktor as a stand alone product.
In that context, the languishing state of Reaktor makes complete sense, even though I don't like it. I'm happy that it still exists, and is still valued by NI.
I could be completely wrong about this. It's just my view as a result of the way development and maintenance has been over the years.
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The development kit was using the A12Z processor, which from a developers perspective should have provided what they required to get up and running on the platform -- I am also an Apple developer and had zero issues with it. The official M1 computers were released mere months after it, and any serious dev studio would have simply ordered a few and started working on a transition if they were having any issues with the development kit. I primarily have developed internal business apps and some game support stuff -- certainly nothing as complicated as NI's catalogue -- but I am not certain what you are talking about with respect existing code not supporting the chips that have come out after M1... again I have had zero issues, and don't need to recompile and resubmit a new binary for every new iPhone model that comes out for example, so I fail to see, given they are all running on similar ARM architecture, how this would be the case for M1+ chips.
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I primarily have developed internal business apps and some game support stuff
How much optimised native machine code do your business apps and game support stuff have to generate?
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I write orchestral scores using Dorico, Logic Pro, and massive sample libraries. I absolutely require all the power I can get from my machine as well as the portability afforded by the laptop form factor. The difference between my old MacBook Pro and my new one is night and day... for one, I am not waiting for literally 20 minutes for the libraries to load up in my DAW and be playable on pieces written using my standard orchestral template.
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Yes, Apple used to produce slow junk notebooks. It is better now.
As a SW developer you should understand that there is rather big difference between bussiness aplication and highly optimized multithread SW that must do its job in time. Maybe even with parts of x86 assembly code...
And that it is not possible to test plugins well untill there are DAWs running in AS native mode. And not only one DAW. Plugins have to be tested and run well in all major DAWs...
And there is difference between CPU in development kit and M1. Running on platform and running well are two quite different things. And code that runs OK on M1, does not have to run OK on M1 Pro/Max/Ultra. And that there are some problems in M1 Ultra....
Simply, even in one family of Apple CPUs there are incompatibilities. Now M2 came, but M2 Pro/Max/Ultra/.... will be on different node. Generaly they will be quite different CPUs than M2...
That is real mess and madness...
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Now, don’t you start again ;)
Apple notebooks before M1 were using Intel i5/i7/i9 processors. Hot, yes - but slow junk?
Unless all PC laptops with i5/i7/i9 are also slow junk…
There’s no more difference between M1/Pro/Max/Ultra/M2 than there is between i3/i5/i7/i9/Xeons. Properly written Apple Silicon code will run on all M series chips without problem, the same way like properly written x86 code will work with all current Intel and AMD chips (despite AMD CPU’s being vastly different and superior to Intel).
Improperly written code, now that’s another matter…
Waves L1 Ultramaximizer plugin was released in 1994, two years before NI was established. And guess what, it is of course M1 native as are all other ancient (but still used) Waves plugins. One either codes for Mac or one doesn’t (or can’t).
So where’s this mess and madness you are talking about?
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Concerning laptops I was refering to Mindspan's statement that M1 laptops are way better than last generation. So, last generation was clearly junk....
Well, in x86 world code that runs on i3, will run without problems on i7 or AMD. It is not so with M1 and M1 Pro/Max/Ultra.
M2 and M2 Pro/Max are on different nodes and so being different CPUs. It may be OK, but there also may be differences and compatibility problems.
Not speaking about the fact M1 CPUs have security problem that cannot be patched/repaired as it is fully hardware thing....
My guess is that NI has AS compatibility and VST3 for few months, but waits for K14 release. Otherwise NI could release updated plugins one by one or in logical groups. But if they release all in one batch, many of them have to be completed long time ago...
And also, if K14 comes in several weeks, everything has to be completed so that physical media may be created and so on.... With delivery problems and so on, everything has to be finished for release on NI side.
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Mindspan seems to know as much about Macs as I know about cross-stitching if he thinks that i3/i5/i7/i9 Apple laptops were junk. You know that those processors were not junk. You should know better than to write that, being PC enthusiast and a coder and a nice person. This kind of inflammatory comments do not help anyone, really.
"Well, in x86 world code that runs on i3, will run without problems on i7 or AMD. It is not so with M1 and M1 Pro/Max/Ultra."
And you know this to be a fact how? Where did you get this information from? Because it is patently untrue. In fact, it is exactly the opposite - the whole M1 family and M2 family is derived from A series chips for iPhones and they are all completely compatible to a point that even iPhone apps can run on M1/M2 Macs without any modifications or recompiling (assuming that the developers wants them to, they can opt out).
Other than that, I agree with everything else you said and I am waiting patiently and quietly. 😉
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Well, Traktor runs fine on M1 and has problems on M1 Pro/Max. And not only Traktor, also other programs of other companies.
M1 and M1 Pro/Max are different. Apple has changed something in M1 Pro/Max comparing M1 and so they are not fully compatible... And M1 Ultra has yet another anomalies as it is two CPUs soldered together.... It may seem to you they are the same type CPUs, but they are not and they have to be treated separately.... If one needs things are computed in time.
It is not one code fits all CPUs....
5-10 weeks to go. :-DDD
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Then the Traktor team messed up something when coding native version, I'm afraid. Which other companies have problems with native M1 compatibility between various M1/M2 variants?
There is absolutely no compatibility issues between the whole M1 and M2 family. Show me any article at Anandtech or Tom's hardware (or anywhere else, for that matter) where it says so. If that was true, Apple would be chased with pitchforks and torches by all Apple developers community and laughed at by PC community.
I've just randomly checked Cubase, Ableton and Fruity Loops and of course Logic Pro - they are all compatible with all M1/M2 processors. Not just M1, also M1Pro/Max/Ultra and M2.
Don't mistake some developers ineptitude and lack of following Apple coding guidelines with facts. Or prove me wrong - show me the links, please. List some M1 native apps which do not work on M1Max/Pro/Ultra/M2.
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Traktor is not AS native. It is probably problem in Rosetta 2 or OS (memory management, thread management, ...).
Simply, what runs OK on M1, does not run on M1 Pro/Max. That is reality. NI has solved it somehow. But before that he hit some kind of incompatibilities....
I do not say, there is problem M1/M2, just that there might be problem between M2 and M2 Pro/Max.
And SW problems with M1 Pro/Max. Maybe it was/is due to OS problem, but still it is related to differences between M1 and M1 Pro/Max. And I have read about other programs having problems, but do not remember what programs. In case of Traktor user had to switch off multithreading and make Traktor run just in one thread.
When one needs do things in real time even subtle differences in behaviour of CPUs may matter....
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Kubrak “Traktor is not AS native. It is probably problem in Rosetta 2 or OS (memory management, thread management, ...).”
I think this is what it is about, because I honestly haven’t heard about any issues with compatibility of NATIVE apps with different M series chips.
There are some other flaws, like memory leak (which you’ve mentioned above) and problems with sandboxing and Secure Enclave but not with compatibility of native apps.
Anyway, thanks for taking time to answer. It is always appreciated, even if we do not always agree.
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But memory leak is compatibility problem. Sandboxing is compatibility problem.
Opera has/has problems. Do not know if was or was not native.
And if certain program works OK on M1 using Rosetta, but does not work OK on M1 Pro/Max/Ultra it is compatibility problem. Just changing CPU for higher model should not make things not working. (If that happened other direction - would work on higher model, but not on lower - it could be understandable....)
But OK, things will settle down in a year, two and things might work.... But I still doubt Apple will be able to keep pace with x86 and maintain price in acceptable margins. Apple's chips are big and so expensive to produce. Also four different chips (Ax/Mx/Mx Pro/Mx Max) make production and development costly. And it seems that Apple has some problems with "chiplet" concept - M1 Ultra (two glued M1 Maxs) performs worse than it should....
We will see in few years....
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I think this is what it is about, because I honestly haven’t heard about any issues with compatibility of NATIVE apps with different M series chips.
Fascinating logic. Rosetta is an application written by Apple, who've had the longest development time with the most information, and it still has compatibility issues. Yet you seem to be suggesting that it somehow doesn't count... because it is Rosetta?
The most likely difficulty with something like Rosetta vs porting most simple applications is that Rosetta needs to auto generate AS binary code. That's exactly the reason porting Reaktor is so challenging. You guys are heavily criticising - basically attacking - NI for taking longer over this... something that Apple cant get right themselves, and yet you are giving Apple a free pass... I am trying to make sense of this reasoning, but it's a struggle!
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Rosetta is just band-aid. It’s a temporary measure until most/all apps are rewritten as native M1 code. What matters to Mac users, is if native apps work on all M1 and M2 processors and they do.
Apple has created the best binary translator so far, incomparably better than Microsoft’s x86 to ARM translator for Windows on ARM. But it is still just emulation which will not translate everything (for example AVX code) and in case of Reaktor, which compiles x86 code on the fly - it just cannot work.
Kubrak’s post implied that there is incompatibility between M1 processors when working with native apps, so I was relieved that it was just Rosetta problems. BECAUSE WHAT MATTERS ARE NATIVE M1 APPS, everything else is just temporary band-aid, as I said.
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