The Sheer Joy of 3.10.2
Comments
-
The level of transparency is highlighted by Hayo not even answering
0 -
To be clear, he has reached out to those of us who submitted the Log files for Native access..
Please give them time to trouble shoot the issue.
I am sure they have a lot of logs to go through..
I have already been asked for further info regarding my logs, from Hayo, so they are looking in to this.
Did you even supply your logs for review??? I don't think so..
0 -
"In my case, this scan has trouble with plugins by Blue Cat, UAD, and Flux. There are others, but less easy to spot. They can't seem to resolve, so the scan endlessly scans them."
Thought I already posted on the fact that I have all the same UAD plugs as you - and I am not seeing ANY UAD plugs scanned at all.
Can you share again how you are determining this? In any of the 4 apps (assuming they are NA, KK, Kontakt and Maschine?)
Is it just Process Explorer or how exactly are you verifying that UAD plugs are being scanned?
For the record - if for example - you have ALL you UAD plugins selected in KK - (checkmarks beside them under Preferences→VSTPlugins) - they will be 100% scanned each and every time you start KK. No transparency needed there.
I guess my question (at least for KK) is - what are expecting to happen if you are actually telling this app to scan these UAD plugins everytime at startup?
VP
0 -
To be clear, he has reached out to those of us who submitted the Log files for Native access..
Please give them time to trouble shoot the issue.
In fairness, Hayo_NI has indeed reached out, and I have sent him logs and other info.
In my case though, issues have been going on for months and even when I posted in the NA forum previously asking for a response from someone from NI, I didn't get one.
Not sure your presumptuousness is that helpful to anyone.
Thought I already posted on the fact that I have all the same UAD
plugs as you - and I am not seeing ANY UAD plugs scanned at all.Can you share again how you are determining this? In any of the 4 apps (assuming they are NA, KK, Kontakt and Maschine?)
OK, fair enough. I went through looking at what Process Monitor was having trouble with and took the main ones out of my VST3 folder. Afterwards, although there were still issues, Maschine was much faster than previously. NA2 was slightly faster, but of course Process Monitor was not showing the constant rescanning it was doing as at least some of those plugs were no longer there.
This scanning behaviour didn't happen till relatively recently, and I didn't have those issues until then. Why does there need to be this scanning on opening????????
If NI opened up a proper dialogue about what might or might not be going on, then maybe we can actually find out why some are having such issues and some not.
How on earth can it be in the code for NA2 and Kontakt to scan through your VST 3 folder…for what?
I'm not telling Maschine or Kontakt or NA2 to do this type of scanning on opening, they are.
I can't talk much about KK as I never really use it I just open it when there's an update, though its behaviour is more or less the same as Maschine.
It is very interesting that you have UAD plugins but don't have issues, it might be prudent to toss around ideas as to why that might be the case. NI should be interested in why this should be the case.
0 -
I was talking about the request to have transparency about what NA/NTK Daemon is doing under the hood and why (as for my previous question tagging him, maybe you missed it).
I’m not saying they are not working to try to understand the issues they created
Luckily I don’t have the same big issues others are encountering. Maybe I should supply my logs anyway…Do you think so?
1 -
Luckily I don’t have the same big issues others are encountering. Maybe I should supply my logs anyway…Do you think so?
Might be worth at least asking him as it may even be helpful in spotting the differences…………..
0 -
"It is very interesting that you have UAD plugins but don't have issues, it might be prudent to toss around ideas as to why that might be the case. NI should be interested in why this should be the case"
Well - the one thing I keep coming back to - and while I do not use Maschine but I do use KK - is that I have unchecked every single UAD plug in KK - because they are not NKS compliant and let's be frank - I would never (ever) use them in KK and certainly do not want them scanned - so they are never scanned.
AND - within KK (Preferences→Plug-Ins→Locations) I have restricted KK to only search two directories for plugins:
C:\Program Files\Common Files\VST2
C:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3
And that's it.
In your case - I get that Maschine's use of VST Plugins is radically different than KK - but if you do not actually use your UAD plugs within your actual Maschine environment - why let this thing waste time by scanning them? Or any other plugs that you mentioned. Have Maschine scan only what's necessary and see how that goes?
And as far as Native Access goes - I cannot see ANY plugin scanning going on here - except for those I noted last week - must be third party that ARE NKS compliant and have a matching JSON file in that directory we chatted about.
VP
0 -
As I mentioned, I don't use KK, though I'll try some things at the weekend.
KK and Maschine are not as different as you think, apparently they do share some of the same code and are now in the same Beta programme.
My plugin directories are not quite the same as yours, being:
C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VST Plugins
C:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3
The scanning going on in this opening scan appears to be only the VST3 folder
Most other programmes do a scan (and check) of your plugin directories on initial install, then only bother noticeably again if you add a new plugin or update one.
Machine and I believe Kontakt used to behave that way, although for years Maschine has had a bug that means on start up it needlessly rescans a number of plugins, mainly iZotope though there are others.
Now they appear to do this scan of your VST3 folders and not in some cases without serious issues.
I seriously question why the need for this as I cannot see how it doesn't increase load times for no immediately apparent benefit, and in my case it obviously can't handle some plugins properly.
AFAIK, Maschine has no facility to stop any of these scans, other than pressing escape when the ones that show in the splash screen commence.
UAD plugins are a pain in that they install all, but then it is only so far NI products that have a problem with this.
As I irritatingly keep informing, no other software but NI has any real issues on my system, and it's very apparent that without NI's help it's not very likely anyone will get to the bottom of this.
I have well over 4000 files and there should be no need to have to only load plugins when a file contains them as that would mean opening a file, seeing what was missing, close file, find plugin(s), reinsert in relevant folder and restart Maschine…………how is that really advantageous?
The scanning that goes on with NA2 is nearly all my VST3s as far as I can see, and certainly many are non NKS compliant. Surely the NTK Daemon logs I sent you showed that.
0 -
Apologies for my misunderstanding. Yes, transparent on what the processes are actually doing. Good point!!
sorry for being presumptuous, not reading (or forgetting I read) your previous posts..
2 -
Same observation from me and my colleagues of our sound design team - the plugin scan of Komplete Kontrol Standalone takes everytime up to 6 minutes.
Seems, that is fact with the current KK, when you have a studio with extended vst plugin requirements.
All other DAW's scan quickly.
KK needs some rework.
2 -
Because I see this baseless claim often (mostly from certain people): there is no evidence NI is releasing untested software. Not everything gets caught by testing, at least not in software that has to run on a variety of unknown and unpredictable configurations. The particular bug with slow loading almost certainly never occurred in any testing scenarios (or they'd have had an opportunity to fix it before release). As I and others have pointed out, we are not having these problems (which is not to deny that some are).
Software for systems like Windows and macOS has to deal with complexities which mean bugs that make it out to public releases are essentially inevitable, unless the software is very simple.
If NI opened up a proper dialogue about what might or might not be going on, then maybe we can actually find out why some are having such issues and some not.
It's not common policy in my experience for a company to respond to this kind of question until they have identified the cause of a problem. I don't believe that it's a productive use of time to discuss possible causes with people outside of the development and testing team.
I guarantee you they are interested in what's happening and in fixing it.
As for transparency on what NTKDaemon is doing, the only remotely mysterious thing it is doing is scanning these plugins, which as has already been pointed out are all NKS enabled, so we have a clue there. Should it be doing that? Maybe. I don't expect NI to explain in detail every decision they make about what their software does and does not do. I don't understand how anyone who demands this uses computers at all. Do you know what all the processes built into macOS and Windows are doing?
Where I am in full agreement is that NI needs to figure out why this process is slow. Which they are working on.
Certain people will probably brand me an NI apologist for this post. Bring it on 😎.
1 -
"The scanning that goes on with NA2 is nearly all my VST3s as far as I can see, and certainly many are non NKS compliant. Surely the NTK Daemon logs I sent you showed that."
Your logs showed 654 products but only 256 being logged - all of which I believe are NKS compatible. The logic for the plugins being logged on your end - is the same as mine - you simply have a gigantic product selection vs my more "refined" collection. Nothing more nefarious that I can see.
The interesting part of this is why you are seeing UAD plugs being scanned. I do know that the idiotic VST2 UAD plugs ARE in fact (force) installed into C:\Program Files\Steinberg\VST Plugins (with NO ability for the user to redirect this) - so if this "Steinberg" location is any way in any scan paths - that is exactly why they are being scanned.
I have ensured that folder is never scanned here and I only use the VST3 versions of UAD plugs. Which never appear in any scanning activity, any logging and certainly not when KK starts up.
VP
0 -
The level of transparency is highlighted by Hayo not even answering
My impression is that Hayo_NI most likely is stressed out and with more than enough on his plate and that it is not lack of good will. I sent Hayo_NI a PM the other day on something N.A. related and he didn't respond to that either. So consider him too busy !
I don't know if this is making and excuse but VSL and IK seem to have gotten it right.
If you are referring to IK Multimedia then yes ! It appears as running stable and without problems once installed and working. But the installation process itself sucks big time (at least if you have a suite such as Total Studio 3.5/4 MAX!). And also the lack of ability to de-authorize computers you lost access to or forgot to de-authorize before re-install is not good either.
Eventually NA is going to hurt NI financially if this app experiences constant issues. There are library developers rolling their own player and libraries and people with ditch NI because of NA.
Completely concur ! Despite N.A. and the whole N.I. ecosystem running very stable for probably most users out there (?) then still there has been too many people hit with too many issues , and once N.A. has screwed up or entered an error state of some kind then it is far too difficult to get the app to recover or to get to work as should. It should have on-board self-diagnostic that would solve most all problems with a little interactive user helping the app or something like that !
1 -
Because I see this baseless claim often (mostly from certain people): there is no evidence NI is releasing untested software.
You think the sheer amount of issues that people have had from NA2 is after it has been tested?????
As for transparency on what NTKDaemon is doing, the only remotely
mysterious thing it is doing is scanning these plugins, which as has
already been pointed out are all NKS enabled, so we have a clue there.
Should it be doing that? Maybe. I don't expect NI to explain in detail
every decision they make about what their software does and does not do.
I don't understand how anyone who demands this uses computers at all.
Do you know what all the processes built into macOS and Windows are
doing?Wrong…it is far from only scanning NKS enabled plugins, and some of the queries do look a tad dubious.
Why does NA need to scan VTS 3's … Can it actually load or install any of them????
Your logs showed 654 products but only 256 being logged - all of which I
believe are NKS compatible. The logic for the plugins being logged on
your end - is the same as mine - you simply have a gigantic product
selection vs my more "refined" collection. Nothing more nefarious that I
can see.The BlueCat plugins are not NKS compatible, nor are the Flux or many others that show being repeatedly scanned in Process Monitor.
It should have on-board self-diagnostic that would solve most all
problems with a little interactive user helping the app or something
like that !A lot of the response I've had during the months and months of this protracted sorry saga is that oh, it's just your system or 'configuration' and it's only now others are saying yes, I too have problems that anything seems to be being done on it and only on NA2, yet there are issues with all the 4 apps.
If not some self diagnostics, then surely there are scripts which could be complied for users with issues to run.
0 -
"The BlueCat plugins are not NKS compatible, nor are the Flux or many others that show being repeatedly scanned in Process Monitor"
Understood - but none these appear in your DAEMON.log files either.
I really think we should stop worrying about what Process Monitor is doing. Not to dismiss it what it is seeing - but rather to ask - what is the purpose of these VST3 plugins being scanned via NA in the first place?
From all I have dug up so far - I fully expect that if I fired up Process Monitor here and then sparked up NA 3.10.3 - I too would see NTKDaemon scanning my VST3 stash too - but in my mind - it is almost certainly looking for something VERY specific - which I firmly believe now is third party (VERY specifically) NKS compatibility.
All through these most recent threads - we have somehow associated "scanning" (in general) as some sort of evil privacy thing where NI is "looking" to weaponize our VST stash with a motive of doing something untoward with it.
But if this scanning activity has a very distinct (and useful purpose) like helping my system identify AND use my NKS plugins better - than so be it.
I know no one is interested in this - but I continue to wonder how this could be 100% NIs fault - if a user has 658 plugins to wade through - and NA has no choice but to plow through all of those to determine what is NKS and what is not.
As a quick compare - I do not have 658 plugins, I have set up VERY specific scan paths and my scan times are less than a minute - more like 10-20 seconds tops. I also use brand new very high spec 2024 custom built workstation that I fully expect should be able to grind through anything with hardcore speed.
So - yes - this "scan" activity is a total PITA but there seems to be many factors/configurations and workarounds available to address (or not address) why this scan is very slow for some and super fast for others.
Now this is not to diminish the impact of some folks (like you) having to suffer over there with a 30 minute scan. AND it clearly begs the question - should this specific "scan" process be better, faster and more efficient? Absolutely it should.
But that is on NI to figure out - which they clearly have a lot of work to do if this is taking 30 bloody minutes.
I do not believe that NA is some "ByteDance-like" data sieve trying to subvert our plugin purchases for some evil ulterior purpose. It makes no sense and serves no purpose - like I care if NI knows if have Omnisphere installed here or not..
VP
1
Categories
- All Categories
- 19 Welcome
- 1.4K Hangout
- 59 NI News
- 711 Tech Talks
- 3.7K Native Access
- 15.3K Komplete
- 1.8K Komplete General
- 4K Komplete Kontrol
- 5.3K Kontakt
- 1.5K Reaktor
- 355 Battery 4
- 790 Guitar Rig & FX
- 403 Massive X & Synths
- 1.1K Other Software & Hardware
- 5.3K Maschine
- 6.8K Traktor
- 6.8K Traktor Software & Hardware
- Check out everything you can do
- Create an account
- See member benefits
- Answer questions
- Ask the community
- See product news
- Connect with creators