The Sheer Joy of 3.10.2
Comments
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Vocalpoint already said a lot of what I was about to, regarding why it may be scanning, and the extreme unlikelihood that NA is doing something dodgy.
You think the sheer amount of issues that people have had from NA2 is after it has been tested?????
The issues I have seen are:
- plugins going into demo mode
- slow startup times
- login problems
And yes, these could all be after the software has been tested. I know it seems unbelievable to you, but to people who work in software development and understand the reality of developing for complex systems, not so much. All of these problems are affecting only some users, indicating they are problems which are not universal, depending on context specific factors, and so can much more easily slip through in testing.
If releases of NA are being rushed out without sufficient testing, I want to be clear on one thing: it is NOT the fault of the people who are bearing the brunt of user frustration here. If anyone is rushing these things out, it will be upper management forcing those who actually develop and test the software to cut corners.
So even if it is true – which is not proven – let's have some grace when dealing with support and the developers. I've worked as a developer for a long time. I've reported bugs to other developers. In all that time, I have almost never encountered a developer or support person who did not want to help when a user had a problem with their software. Even in the face of being blamed by users for things beyond their control.
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And look, in case it hasn't come across well: I am in no way saying that whatever is happening is correct software behaviour and should be accepted (and nor are NI, which is why they are looking into it). I am saying let's give them a chance to investigate and try to fix the problem and drop the idea that what is happening is anything more than an unintended bug.
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I really think we should stop worrying about what Process Monitor is
doing. Not to dismiss it what it is seeing - but rather to ask - what is
the purpose of these VST3 plugins being scanned via NA in the first
place?Now there is a large discrepancy because when these 'scans' are taking place I assume Process Monitor is not fabricating the activity it is indicating, and it is definitely showing that the relevant app, NTK Daemon, Machine, KK, Kontakt is repeatedly scanning for ages non NKS apps. Why can this not be showing in the NTK Daemon logs???????
I repeat, why on earth should Kontakt or NA2 need to scan VST3s??????
OK, I'm not properly au fait with programming but the way that scanning used to work was you install a programme, it then goes through the long and arduous process of scanning and logging what plugins you have and then only comes out to play when a plugin is either installed or updated.
Works well for most programmes.
What can possibly be the advantage or need to then do some protracted scan at start up…..where's the plus points for whom???
The reason I hark on about transparency is that I have complained about this for months in the Beta forums, in support, and on here to get little worthwhile response. In fact, it's only when others have said they to have issues that anything at all has been even acknowledged.
Apart from the initial scan, it shouldn't matter how many plugins you have, there are many who have far more than I, just as there are many with less. If you introduce a system that is heavily penalising users who have a lot of other products, that is not going to sit well.
So even if it is true – which is not proven – let's have some grace when
dealing with support and the developers. I've worked as a developer for
a long time. I've reported bugs to other developers. In all that time, I
have almost never encountered a developer or support person who did not
want to help when a user had a problem with their software. Even in the
face of being blamed by users for things beyond their control.I repeat, this has been going on for months and months. It's not about a single release or even a handful.
If anyone in the entity now known as NI had acknowledged properly there were issues and tried to deal with them, there wouldn't be this amount of frustration, which isn't healthy for anyone.
OK things there are a total mess, but they were a mess before Francisco Partners and it always seems like the losers are always the users, particularly Maschine users. Why introduce yet another level of mess on to what's there already?
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This is going in circles, so I'm done. NI support and developers have more patience in this matter than I, and I have better things to do this weekend.
I'll leave you with a question: after acknowledging that a situation is frustrating to all involved, what's the point in making it more frustrating by continually casting aspersions on those trying to help?
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I'm not casting aspersions at all, I too am tired of people trying to either say what appears to be going on isn't or seemingly making 'excuses' for it. Any useful suggestions about what might be going on, great.
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"Apart from the initial scan, it shouldn't matter how many plugins you have, there are many who have far more than I, just as there are many with less. If you introduce a system that is heavily penalising users who have a lot of other products, that is not going to sit well."
All through this - you are making some grand assumption that just the "initial scan" should be the "the scan" or that other vendors scan techniques are better, faster or whatever. None of that matters.
What does matter is the THIS scan (in presumably all 4 apps that do scans) are poorly written. They are clearly written in a way that a penalty is built in and there is NO initial scan (and never will be one).
It does the same thing over and over (painfully) because that is the way it is - for now.
That you have 658 plugins to grind through - every time this scan occurs - will never get better until NI makes it better.
But I do agree with @Paul B - endlessly grinding on NI does nothing. I am fairly certain they know this whole thing sucks a** but do not have the programming time, talent or resource at this time to rewrite the whole thing from scratch. A more plausible theory of mine is they never thought to do proper Q&A on a specific use case where 658 plugins were installed.
Regardless of where we are at - or where you are at - no amount of negative vibes (and I know it's been going on a LONG time) will change this fact until NI recognizes that NA - as especially their NTKDaemon - is not ready for prime time.
And I want to be clear - no one is making excuses. On my prior DAW - I could not tolerate a 5+ minute scan either - so on my new build - I took measures into my own hands and cut out ALL VST2 plugins and anything else that I know I am never going to use.
In the old DAW - I had 1238 plugins being scanned - now I have maybe 100. Worked for me - I am down to 7-10 seconds now with my Komplete Kontrol scans.
It is what it is and it is up to NI to address this.
VP
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It is what it is and it is up to NI to address this.
Exactly and they haven't, possibly now they might, but months ago they didn't / haven't. NI have had an abusive relationship with their users for years, and until people start shouting at them, they still will.
It shouldn't come to this, never should have, but they have brought this upon themselves.
About 2 years ago, they almost admitted culpability and apologised…… then just got worse.
Who wins? … No-one, so why pursue that 'approach'?
And I want to be clear - no one is making excuses. On my prior DAW - I
could not tolerate a 5+ minute scan either - so on my new build - I took
measures into my own hands and cut out ALL VST2 plugins and anything
else that I know I am never going to use.You shouldn't have to
Bitwig can do it
Reaper can do it
Waveform can do it
The one-man operation called MuLab can do it
Why can't NI??????
NI Used to do it…………………………………….
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Bitwig can do it
Reaper can do it
Waveform can do it
The one-man operation called MuLab can do it
Why can't NI??????
Because exactly none of these are capable (in any way) of NKS (in my opinion) .
And they are all DAWs - which none of these NI apps are. Not even a fair comparison.
All these apps above have to do is scan the plugin and make sure it shows up in the program.
VP
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I think they should combine the scan app 3 to cover all 4 softwares (KK, Kontakt, Native Access and Machine),
One initial scan, then a minor scan from either program (scan app 3) for example would service all 4.
The scan result would be in a shared folder which is accessed by all 4 programs.
so, no matter if you open KK or Kontakt, or Native access. if it was scanned when you opened Native access, then, when you go to open Komplete Kontrol, the scan has already been done.
Therefor all Komplete has to do is look up the Scan log, do a cursory scan for only Newly added Vst's, and thats it done, should only take a few seconds.
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Quoted for complete agreement.
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People want their stuff to work. Good thing we are not talking about airline jets.
Developers support and patience doesn't bring in revenue when the end user support and patience is exhausted.
It seems like every new update is 2 steps back. Somewhere incompetence outweighs sympathy.
They aren't the only one. Developers are really into distribution apps. Direst downloads are great for archiving in case a drive goes bad.
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+1 like IL plugin manager somehow, much better somehow IMHO
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Because exactly none of these are capable (in any way) of NKS (in my opinion) .
And they are all DAWs - which none of these NI apps are. Not even a fair comparison.
All these apps above have to do is scan the plugin and make sure it shows up in the program.
They all have to host plugins and do so without many noticeable issues.
I think most if not all the plugins that NI can't seem to deal with in a viable manner are non NKS
Whatever they see as the benefits of this current scanning, it's patently obvious that it is causing VERY serious issues for some that this thread and NI are nowhere near understanding and dealing with in anything like a professional manner.
I suggest that they try to make a diagnostic script that any of us can run and that might indicate just why some of us have issues that others don't as the NTK Daemon logs don't describe a lot of the activity that is taking place.
It could be considered prudent that until such time as they can get this thing working to let everyone have the option to turn off this scanning in NA2, Kontakt, Maschine and KK. How they think it is anyway acceptable that anyone should have to wait 8–10 minutes for a file to open or have the software do an update beggars belief.
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"I suggest that they try to make a diagnostic script that any of us can run and that might indicate just why some of us have issues that others don't as the NTK Daemon logs don't describe a lot of the activity that is taking place"
Not a bad idea - but I do not think NI is going to give anyone any insider info on what NTKDaemon is doing, why it's doing it or what it needs to do it for. That could compromise licensing, promote hacks and possibly make this worse than it already is.
Clearly if you are waiting 5-10-15-20 minutes for a scan to complete - it has to be one of these things - either because you have too many plugins being scanned in every pass, some oddball plugin (or two or three) in there are particularly difficult to scan OR your machine is sufficientl underpowered to be able to do this in an efficient manner (did we ever find out exactly what you are using hardware and OS wise?) Or a combo of these.
NI cannot test every plugin ever made on every machine combo from 2015 to now. Sooner or later an "edge" case will appear and maybe in this case - yours is it.
Scrolling through these forums - I haven't really found anyone else suffering the extremes that is your scenario so you may have an install that actually defies logic.
What that tells me is that your case is not the norm - and that cannot be 100% blamed on NTKDaemon scanning.
I scanned your logs and see your plugins - you do have a lot of obscure items that I do not have but the big guns are about the same. But you also have 4-5 times the plugins that I have and that alone is going to increase your scan times not matter how good this thing is.
No doubt this whole scan process needs work - but without a bit of bend on your end - like dumping 100 plugins and trying again - we will never known where this issue actually lies with your install.
VP
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@Vocalpoint Why do NI needs to scan plugins ? People having hundred of plugins is the norm now. Yes, NI can't test any plugin on earth, but if having huge plugin library is the norm and falling on compatibility issues is the expected issue when scanning a lot of plugins, the solution would be not to scan them, so no problems occurs.
CQFD
No other plugin brand is having such issues. So it's not about the user having a lot of plugins or not testing its issues in a scientific way. It's about NI doing it the way it was working before and the way it works for any other plugin brand…
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If you scan the forums, I am far from the only person suffering these issues, even if I seem to have them in a more severe manner.
I took out all the UAD, Flux and BlueCat plugins and although there were still issues the load times were indeed faster…..but then why should anyone have to take out plugins for NI products to work?
They were working OK until the introduction of this scan at start…hence Kontakt 6 works OK.
If they are worried about compromising their 'privacy' then the diagnostic scans can be done in the beta forums, though it's open to question why they would need such 'secrecy'.
Why are Kontakt and NA2 scanning VST3's????????????
Why not give people the option to not have this scan?
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