Komplete Kontrol 3 - Slow previews (KBDSW-7936)

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Answers

  • moai
    moai Member Posts: 65 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/221270#Comment_221270

    Hello @XeviaN, as an IT-guy myself, I also conducted similar tests and arrived at the same conclusions. I also suspect that the size of the db3 database is contributing to the performance issues. From what I know, as the database grows, it can significantly affect the application’s responsiveness. This would explain why the app works flawlessly with smaller databases, but performance degrades as the size of the database increases.

  • Kymeia
    Kymeia NKS User Library Mod Posts: 5,559 mod
    edited April 12
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/221273#Comment_221273

    Sorry I wish it was that clear cut but I have a huge number of presets (113,378 in factory + 241,854 in user) but get no slowdown in loading previews using the keyboard.

    There is, however, a slowdown in scrolling using the computer keyboard arrows but this seems unconnected to previews as even presets without previews have the same lag (and previews load fast with the mkiii) so I think this is more of a graphics lag with the computer keyboard (and possibly also other hardware other than a mkIII keyboard if it is also affecting mkII)

  • moai
    moai Member Posts: 65 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/221274#Comment_221274

    From my side, on Windows 11 and KK 3.4.1, with over 70K presets, I have the same lag either scrolling with the KK Controller A61, with my mouse, or my keyboard

  • XeviaN
    XeviaN Member Posts: 9 Member

    Also, can i install an older version of KK ? If so, how ?
    Thanks

  • moai
    moai Member Posts: 65 Member

    https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000313457-Komplete-Kontrol-Legacy-Installers-for-Older-Operating-Systems

  • Kymeia
    Kymeia NKS User Library Mod Posts: 5,559 mod
    edited April 12
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/221280#Comment_221280

    Yeah thought it might affect the A series too - bummer!

    Maybe browsing from the MkIII is the only thing that is exempt? This is looking less like being previews related (at least per se) and more like a hardware issue

    Interestingly if I browse using the QWERTY keyboard arrows it is faster if I browse 1 by 1 than if I hold down the arrow keys which again suggests some sort of GUI lag - if I hold down the keys I can actually hear previews loading in the background but the display itself is lagging behind

  • XeviaN
    XeviaN Member Posts: 9 Member
    edited April 12

    Ok, i did another test. I installed the 2.9.6 version and guess what? It is lighting fast. But let's look in detail.

    First, here's a video of the new version (3.4.1) lagging.

    You can check the lag by listening to the audio. You can hear when I click the mouse and when the sample starts. Also, a really strange thing: KK itself was laggy in every operation, and keyboard navigation wasn't working (just listen to me furioulsy tapping on the keyboard xD). This is the first time it's happened to me. Usually, it's just laggy.

    https://youtu.be/ymBBHBv1WS8

    So, i tried with the 2.9.6. Installed, launched, it started to rebuild the presets DB.

    The final size of the database ended up being about the same as version 3.4.1 (more or less, a few MB difference).

    Here's the actual browsing speed on my PC:

    https://youtu.be/LlDfctJ_5JU

    So lets get to the Process Monitor tests.

    Komplete Kontrol 2.9.6

    The old version of KK, in idle mode, does very little: some reads from the registry and a few temporary files. Nothing major. Here's a screenshot of the loop it goes through."

    image.png

    And what happens when i click a preset to hear the sound preview? This:

    • open komplete.db3-shm, komplete.db3-wal, komplete3.db3 and read from them. Very little reading instructions from file system, very little time occupied
    • query some paths on file system
    • open and play the sample

    This list of operations took 12 milliseconds.

    image.png
    image.png

    But let's move to the new one.

    Komplete Kontrol 3.4.1

    The idle mode (program opened, nothing clicked) of 3.4.1 has some operations more regarding a Komplete Kontrol.log file thas is continuosly created/closed (kind of).
    Just to tell, this "loop" is taking 621 mseconds (but this might not be a meaningful metric, since these operations could be running on a separate thread, dunno).

    image.png
    image.png

    Ok, and then what happens when i click a preset to hear the sample preview? This:

    • open komplete.db3-shm, komplete.db3
    • do A LOT of readings on komplete.db3 (something like 23 times the old one)
    • unlock komplete.db3-shm and lock komplete.db3-shm
    • do again A LOT of readings on komplete.db3 (something like 15 times the old one)
    • unlock komplete.db3-shm and lock komplete.db3-shm
    • do again A LOT of readings on komplete.db3 (something like 155 times the old one)
    • create a temporary file (Local\Temp\randomname)
    • write some data on it
    • do again A LOT of readings on komplete.db3 (something like 155 times the old one)
    • write some data on the temporary file created before
    • do again A LOT of readings on komplete.db3 (something like 39 times the old one)
    • write some data on the temporary file created before
    • read all the data written on the temporary file
    • unlock komplete.db3-shm and lock komplete.db3-shm
    • do again A LOT of readings on komplete.db3 (something like 155 times the old one)
    • create another temporary file (Local\Temp\randomname) with a different filename
    • and again, reading from komplete.db3, write and read to temp file, etc, etc, I GOT TIRED

    So, after four or five repetitions of this loop of reading from komplete.db3 and writing to temp files, KK read, I believe, the entire komplete.db3 file at least four times from start to finish.

    At this time the audio file is found, opened and played.

    This process took 400 mseconds (compared to the 12 msecs of the old version).

    So, in conclusion.

    I think there’s something fundamentally wrong with the way the new KK queries the database and searches for the sample to load.
    Unfortunately, Procmon is just a tool that gives some targeted insights.

    Ideally, KK should be debugged (with proper tools) directly on a machine where the lag is occurring.

    I really hope NI has the ability to do that.

    My two cents.

    P.S.: I have the two PML (Procmon log) files saved on my PC, in case anyone at NI might find them useful.

    Cheers

  • XeviaN
    XeviaN Member Posts: 9 Member

    Nice, screenshots are not readable. If someone is interested i could reupload them in a different format -_-

  • moai
    moai Member Posts: 65 Member

    @XeviaN your screenshots are readable enough, really appreciate the dedication! I was too lazy to use procmon on the old one, but I did on the new one and I have similar results. This gives a very good overview of what happens under the hood, I hope it has a solution.

  • Beatsandmore
    Beatsandmore Member Posts: 221 Advisor
    edited April 13

    Delete no need to add

  • Kirderf-73
    Kirderf-73 Member Posts: 21 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/221408#Comment_221408

    Great work and thanks! Maybe you should apply for a job at NI? I think you have a full team here that would recommend you. 🤩

    Question though. Why do you think for some users, there is no preview latency and that NI have not been able to replicate the latency?

    Could it be that all users have the preview latency in 3.4.1, (Windows and MAC) and that we just have a little different perspective (and acceptance) for the latency, that may differ from system to system depending on hardware and the number of total presets?

  • XeviaN
    XeviaN Member Posts: 9 Member

    Ahahaha :D
    To get a few more clues, the same measurements need to be done on a machine that doesn’t show the lag. I’ll try that today on my laptop and see what happens.
    What needs to be done now is to understand what the lagging machines have in common. I’ll try to dig deeper into that.

  • Thusis
    Thusis Member Posts: 56 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/221408#Comment_221408

    with that information N.I could track it down…And tbh this actually would be their job to do that what you did. Great work…

  • Thusis
    Thusis Member Posts: 56 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/221408#Comment_221408

    Do you have the possibilty to check that behaviour with a KK3 Keyboard connected with Software 3.4.1? Or N.I should send you one…As the lag doesnt happen for Kymeia when the KK3 Keyboard is connected and browsing done over the keyboard…

  • Kymeia
    Kymeia NKS User Library Mod Posts: 5,559 mod
    edited April 13
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/221448#Comment_221448

    No absolutely not ‘tolerance’ related. I posted a video to show how fast loading previews is using the Mkiii jogwheel (or knobs) to load- I literally could not turn the knobs faster, loading is virtually instant. And I have more NKS presets than almost anyone in this thread. So KK 3.4.1 can load previews fast with the right hardware doing the scrolling.

    Also scrolling is super laggy using the computer keyboard to scroll even for banks that don’t have previews.

    Finally if I hold the computer keyboard arrow down the gui actually stalls completely but I can hear previews loading - which suggests it is the gui that is not keeping up with previews loading

    So I think the problem is not previews but scrolling and gui lag and it is hardware dependent

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