No M1 support's forced me use products from *other* music software makers

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  • Season
    Season Member Posts: 26 Member
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    Well, as a computer technician for 19 years, I've learned that you NEVER want to upgrade immediately. As a Mac user for 7 years, after 3 2012 Mac Mini's and 1 2020 (2018) Intel-based Mac Mini all of them still work impeccably with music applications by the way [the only one limited is my i5 Mac mini which I can only use so many plugins on still a lot but limited] I have no qualms from the Mac realm. Just don't upgrade past Mojave if you still have 32 bit plugins or Catalina. Another trick for some strange reason worked for me is install everything on Mojave, then upgrade to Catalina. All this other new ****** within the Operating Systems isn't necessary. It's nice to have or convenient but not necessary. As for M1 and M series Mac's, I ca't say I didn't see this coming from a mile away... Apple let developers get ahold of them for a few months to even play with then started pushing them to the masses... Not enough time to write quality programming code. Developers are still scrambling to make sure everything works correctly. Not a good look on Apple's part. Albeit it's been two years since the 2020 WWDC and NI probably could do better development-wise, only time will tell how this situation will play out. Plus, didn't NI just go through a couple of rounds of firings and a management change in between them over the past few years? If I'm not mistaken, I think I've read about that.

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Member Posts: 2,683 Expert
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    Lots of decent advice in this thread, also shadowed by about the same amount of one sided ****** too

    As someone who is both an Apple user and a PC user (operates 4 PCs, 2 windows laptops, 1 windows server, 2 apple TVs, 4 iPads, 4 iPhones, 1 MBP and 2 Android TVs in my house) I can see both the benefits and pitfalls of both platforms and IMO there is no clear winner, just personal choice.

    A redesign of processor architecture is long overdue and IMO when all this current mess is sorted and peoples heads are out of the clouds, we will start to see development with efficiency and better performance. I am also in that boat where I hate how hot my 2019 MBP gets literally when running the damn screensaver but I attribute that more to the floored design of such a slim notebook format with limited cooling.

    As has been mentioned, Apple has a hold over developers and will "Force" them (and users) to update to keep up and while it seems like a one sided "do as we say" the trade off is Apple offer Developers the chance to drop old users who don't want to invest in the future by dropping OS support like a hot stick.

    As every OS version comes out, one drops off the end and only the latest 3 versions of an OS release are supported. 10.13 was just dropped and that was released in 2017 so while hardware may be fine, no more OS or software support. This means developers can build in upgrade costs for software or subscription renewals to use their plugins/software on the latest OS to pad the time they have to spend constantly updating software... Something you cannot in Windows but granted it is rare to need to update software for Windows as it is based more on a modular framework hence backward compatibility is inherent. So devs can make a lot of extra income just by users updating their OS. Can bet you anything some Apple users have done that latest OS update only to find they now have to purchase the latest plugin bundle to make things work (Waves anyone)...

    Flip over to Windows and I have systems in my home still running Windows 7 on 18 year old hardware and working without issue as a media server (Plex, Downloading, Firewall, Backups etc) with most modern software versions still! My main work machine is pushing a good 10+ years with upgraded parts on Windows 10, it's old enough it is not even able to update to Win11 but Win 10 will be supported for another 10 years. I can even load the projects I created when I was just 15 years old back in 1995 in Fasttracker and they play as they did originally.

    So Windows may not be the shining light of "innovation" and yes the software and hardware are detached (leaving users to make their own decisions if they so choose) but if you want a more "secure and safe" experience knowing things won't break with the next update or you won't have to wait 6-36 months for software to work with the next OS/Hardware release Windows has always offered this but with the cost of having something not as "perfectly streamlined" and with a little more work involved to learn with somethings not as "out of the box" simple to setup.

    So each to their own, both macOS and Windows serve perfectly at crunching numbers it's just a computer at the end of the day. I personally prefer Windows for my main home system because of cost, upgradability and flexibility when it comes to how software works ongoing. I also like my MBP for how efficient it is with power (even as an intel model), the size and use it for everything mobile (data ingest from cameras and audio recorders, basic editing, programming etc) tho having only 2 USB-C ports is a bit of a cop out for a $2100 machine IMO.

    What does irritate me about the macOS side tho is that it does seem constantly developers are spending a LOT of time maintaining software for the latest version only to then have to start on the next version. It's just a lot of wasted time which detracts from more important things IMO especially now with this M1 business, that seems a bit of a complication in many areas.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,836 Expert
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    I fully agree. Just one thing, notebooks with new AMD Ryzen do well. The only problem is that many manufactures of notebooks still prefer Intel, and if they make AMD notebook, they often put there inferior display (than on comparable Intel one) or too low amount of memory, too small SSD.... And so on....

    But things slowly change....

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 472 Pro
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    Well about coding times and adoption if you (any of you feeling quoted) take in consideration that M1 (and some improvements in macOS) makes possible to port iPad apps into macOS very straightforward, maybe, you could understand where the “time and space” for tinkering was. IPad 1st generation was introduced 12 years ago and coders like DjPlayer developer were able to run even DVS and so on that “big iPhone”. Other examples of that are Nanostudio, BeatMaker (the first version worked even before Apple let third party apps and was integrated using Cydia afaik), AudioBus/Loopy… Akai Mpc standalone software is based/buildver iMPC2 from Retronyms, Roland Zenbeats grow from NeKo’s workstations stagelight (and it’s crossplatform including windows and android), Korg Gadget born at iPad and grow into desktop (and nintendo switch)…

    I hope you get the point.


    Macmini sdk was an iPad pro chip inside a mac mini main board. It was able to run Logic/Final cut… and M1 was fully designed chip for desktop/laptop presumably “better”. So just try to see the dots…

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,836 Expert
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    @Mutis

    Move code from iPad (ARM) to M1 (just a biger brother of that iPad's ARM) is something pretty different from moving code from x86....

  • Maciej Repetowski
    Maciej Repetowski Member Posts: 572 Guru
    edited June 2022
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    Yeah, but NI didn’t do anything for mobile, except for iMaschine happy (and later abandoned) experiment, which was yet another strategic error, IMHO.

    So for them, whether it was A series or M series - the same exotic animal they’ve heard rumours about but never seen one in person 🤣🤣🤣

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 472 Pro
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    That’s why Rosetta exists, to give x86 developers time to get iOS/iPadOS developers skills. Apple themselves had been integrating iOS/iPadOS developers into their teams such Alchemy dev, Samplr dev and Looptunes HD (also Akai MPC desktop sw) dev… probably alongside some x86 devs but I don’t know about “these”. Usually most related to hardware developers such Kinect team back in the day…

    OTOH DriverKit has been release to implement some desktop technologies into AS to make these easier. That’s why insist you so much about how important is the OS, optimization and resources. Apple knows they need happy devs so they try to fit proper tools at right moment (from their strategy of course) so they create a winwin scenario.

    Said that remember Rosetta 2 performance outperforms previous (mac)Intels so apps like Ableton Live (more complex than Maschine and Komplete) worked better “virtualised” and now these are native (not pun intended) should be even more powerfull… or work the same over lower wattage platform ;-)

    They had Traktor Dj 2 as universal app and Maschine ported into embed Linux (yocto) at the same moment in time.

    They were considering ditch Traktor division (rumour) but probably someone from Soundwide make them rethink it. The fact Traktor is getting iZotope FX could point some team merging is happening.

    So

    we can keep discussing and wondering but time is putting things in place and I just try to point that Apple had an strategy based on iDevices as prototyping machines (even released swift playgrounds for iPad and “xCode rumour” has some foundation from that “iPadPro macmini sdk” device almost for M1 compatible machines)

    I said it before “The question isn’t what but when”. Maybe when the Mwhatever for mac pro becomes a reality. Apple could seem fast-switching but this Transition wasn’t 2 years, it started 12 years ago with iPad 1st gen IMO.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,836 Expert
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    Apple supports developers, well? Developer Transition Kit (DTK), HW to test M1 code was available only five months (June 22, 2020) before M1 computers came (Nov 17, 2020). And it was not even M1, but iPad chip, and it had betaversion of macOS....

    And folks wonder, why transition to AS takes so long.... The thing is that Apple has not helped transition much...

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 472 Pro
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    Better than any competitor in the same field… ohwait! There is no other hardware/software solution like them.

    That hw sdk among Rosetta 2 and many other tools are making it easier for lots of devs but the blame about why NI didn’t it’s Apple’s fault of course…

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,836 Expert
    edited June 2022
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    I just say, that the support was not that great and if DTK came much sooner transition would be more seamless. Such a thing takes several years, so providing DTK, that even was not real M1 system and completed OS, five months ahead is not suffitient at all... It has helped transition, but if it came year sooner, things would be much better.

  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,307 Guru
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    The timing of Apple's release of materials for AS compatibly is not a primary or secondary reason for NI's slowness.

    NI's own poor decisions caused their lack of competitive development speed.

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 472 Pro
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    How could be possible for other brands but not enough for NI and being Apple’s fault at the same time?

    Transition is still ongoing so there’s still window to port sw but we are pointing (myself since day 1) is how wrong NI calculated the timming, almost against competency (and how they dismissed it and didn’t listen their userbase).

    The point, agree or disagree on taste/opinion, is Apple gave the same tools for everyone and it’s up to brands to implement them. Faster or slower means competency implementing things before and that’s is just a minor issue.

    I warned about “full iOS developers taking advantage of new AS technologies since the core work was done. The best example for that is Djay Pro AI 4. Since Djay Pro was working on iOS/iPadOS from long ago (building app after app, not miraculosly) when the new chip and new features such BionicAI arrived they can focus on implement these and keep growing. You talk a lot about AVX but forget about BionicAI, Metal and so. These were first at iPad and let users play Fornite (or PUBG). It wasn’t desktop experience of course but show a path. When AS arrived it has some efforts but for those who were developing almost Universal apps that effort wasn’t “rewritting everything” and it’s not related to big or small teams (aside beaurecracy) but strategy. People compare Vdj and Djay stems but forgot about the little detail of later being working over a mobile chip. Let’s hope Vdj is Universal app and arrives to iPad too like Djay Pro is available on desktop/laptop. Obviously Vdj did a “rewrite” long ago way before any trace of AS transition but “releasing ballast” from they own technical debt.

    NI was too much x86 dependent and chose go embed. Since they can’t sustain the whole portfolio with that strategy they need (as must) to reconsider AS transition roadmap and the question still is “Could NI handle all these fronts? How worth are all of them as a whole and as one against other?” Because inHouse resorces seem limited and the feeling is “Soundwide needs to rescue them from the edge themselves got into”.

    I hope NI don’t go the M-Audio route…

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,836 Expert
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    Again, different companies face different technical problems. NI has its own antipiracy system, for example.

    To develop this one needs final version of OS and real CPU, not something like that.

    And NI is not so much delayed comparing to iZotope, for example... And iZotope does not have to deal with its own antipiracy, like NI....

  • fictional character
    fictional character Member Posts: 1 Member
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    Hi NI,

    Any update on Maschine M1 support please? The UI is really bad and the performance is worse on my Mac Studio with M1 max than my old 10 year i5 iMac which I've just had to get rid of due to a degradation in performance. A rough idea on timescales would be really helpful as it will stop me obsessively checking almost every day and feeling disappointed :-) I know u guys are working hard to resolve and it's appreciated but be good to know if we can expect in the coming months or will it be later? Thanks

  • More Or Les
    More Or Les Member Posts: 3 Member
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    HEADS-UP: NI just released this "Roadmap" of Traktor features... Too bad for us M1/M2 users that native support still isn't in the latest version, but at least they've said "it's on the way". Hopefully, it'll happen before the end of the year (only putting them a year behind other Audio software/hardware makers... #justsayin):

    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/5305/traktor-pro-3-feature-roadmap-q3

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