No M1 support's forced me use products from *other* music software makers

chk071

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/18914#Comment_18914

Software development is a complex thing...

And, yeah, like you, I'm happy to be on Windows. Issues like that are simply non-existant. It's Apple who notoriously change everything, because the solid, reliable stuff is always "out of date". Thus I can only recommend to use Windows, if you want a stable, solid production machine. Apple is rather bleeding edge of technology, especially when they all of a sudden from one day to the other decide that everyone needs to use mobile CPU's.

nightjar

Pushing things forward in what is possible with creative tools is something I am happy to see, and I enjoy being a participant.

It is amazing what we can do in music production today. And it takes a willingness to embrace change for these things to happen.

To each their own.. but I am an early adopter and glad to be so.

Ians

Sorry to say I won't be buying anything from NI until they start updating their products to M1. Just releasing new libraries for old software isn't the sort of innovation I came to expect from NI. They seem to have gone backwards in recent years after all the redundancies & buy-outs. I can't see them ever catching up with the competition.

Kubrak

Libraries are for Kontakt. And Kontakt is the both VST3 and native Apple Silicon compatible. So, producing new libraries adds utility of Kontakt for M1 users, who want/need to run natively.

So, what is the problem in this case?

I agree, that it would be nice if NI transition to native AS would be faster. But my opinion is, that it should be payed service for M1 users. They do not have licence for M1 chip and transition is costly. It should not be for free.

asdf-is-already-taken

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/20457#Comment_20457

Oh come on mate. Intel has had the market cornered for 10 years now and what we got for it is stagnation and complacency. Their stubborn insistence on the now bloated x86 for reasons of backwards compatibility is probably where all the bodies are buried for them when it comes to power consumption (their hardware cisc to risc encoder that's embedded into each and every one of their processors). My 16" 2019 MBP can't even do a video call without catching on fire. Since when is a 100 degrees an acceptable thermal envelope? I can understand Apple's frustration. Moreover, Apple's strategy is vertical integration. Windows is more about modularity. Each have their strengths. But I think the M1 is a huge leap forward in silicon by any objective measure. I personally wouldn't want to move away from Core Audio. That architecture is far more elegant than what you get on Windows and it's been around for a long time so you can't really call it bleeding edge.

My new MBP M1Pro is amazing. Just as fast as the fastest PCs out there and dead silent. Endless battery life and sips power. What's not to like? It's a music makers dream.

Apple will deprecate Rosetta2. No question about that. They did the same thing back in 2005 when they switched to Intel. NI has had ample time to transition. It's been two years and they've managed to transition one product. I don't think that's reasonable on their part. The official line is they're allocating maximum effort but that's kind of a nothing line. One product in two years is pretty shabby. Everyone else pretty much have done better. I have thousands tied up in the NI eco system. Waiting two years for them to get their act together is actually kind of unacceptable. Especially since small developers like U-he and ValhallaDSP can turn this around in less than half that time. Hell, ever DAW now native except for Pro Tools. And that's far more complicated than Kontakt. But as far as Windows being a stable platform etc etc it's not any better than what Apple can do. Just different strengths. And just wait. You'll eat those words pretty soon when Microsoft decides to ditch Intel and follow Apple with their own vertical integration strategy. Windows on ARM is coming and probably a lot sooner than you think.

Kubrak

1) Win on ARM has been here for years. Just users are sort of missing....

2) Backward compatibility is good... And AMD shows that it does not cost that much energy... OK, it costs some silicon.

3) I agree with you, that Intel did bad job in past eight, ten years....

4) Apple will depreciate Rosetta 2, few years before Rosetta 3 comes....

5) Why do you think, Pro Tools are far more complicated than Kontakt, or Reaktor?

Kubrak

1) Yes, users need compatibility, that is why most users prefer Win. And from Win they prefer x86 over ARM.

2) Yes and no. Apple brought cheap M1 notebooks and fooled users by comparing M1 just to Intel.... Apple can do it like that, because it is in monopoly position for Mac products....

3) Yes Intel has lagged industry. Partly maybe intentionaly (no real competition), partly because he had serious problems to leave 14nm node. But it has already been 5 years since AMD Zen1 has hit the road. And AMD was back in game.

4) Clock is running for sure. Roseta 3 comming soon.

5) OK, if Pro Tools are more complicated to port than any NI product, and it is THE STANDARD, Apple will wait with Rosetta 2 depreciation till ProTools get AS native.

Yes I like AMD CPUs right now, as AMD brought competition to x86 again, which is good thing for all. If Intel or Apple would deliver excellent processors for x86, I might switch my opinion and become fan of their brand.

Maciej Repetowski

Ad 4: Please, I understand you are very knowledgeable about PC platform but saying thing like “Rosetta 3 coming soon” when you have no knowledge of Apple platform and as you admitted yourself some time ago, no one you know personally is a Mac user - this just makes your statements funny.

There’s no going back to AMD or Intel and there will be no Rosetta 3 because the thing Apple loves most is to have full control over their hardware.

Ad 5: Apple waits for nobody. Apple will force Avid to provide native ProTools by deprecating Rosetta 2, as soon as they stop selling last Intel Macs (6-12 months from now). They will actually force everyone, including NI and those who will not - will fade into oblivion, the same as it was with transition from PPC to Intel. And if you think large company like NI can afford to loose Mac users and become PC only - you’re dreamer.

You always speak about Apple like it is some exotic company only weirdos buy products from - this is Trillion dollar company, one of the biggest in the world. If they wanted, they could have bought AMD, Avid or NI without even blinking an eye. You, my friend, could really use some reading on how big Apple really is 🤣

Kubrak

My guess is Rosetta 3 will come. Maybe not back to x86, but Apple doesn't seem to be able to keep pace with x86... M3 will decide... Of course, I may be wrong.

Apple might love to have full controll over the things.... But it does not mean they must be able to sustainably develop stronger and stronger CPUs for computers.

If Apple depreciates Rosetta 2 in a year, there is still 1/3 of time to the end. And Apple might depreciate it even later...

My guess is NI will have AS compatibility in few months. They could hardly release K14 without AS native compatibility.... And K14 might be released in two, three months, if things will go as usual.

I know two people who use Mac. It is their first computer and someone has told them it is better for Traktor than Win. They have to call and pay the guy who maintains it for them as noone around them knows Macs....

Maciej Repetowski

And I can pop to Apple Store in Norwich (my city), do hands-on demo of everything Apple sells and get help there, if needed.

Eastern Europe is so bizarre sometimes (I’m originally from Poland, so I know about it first hand) - dominant PC position there stems from US embargo on technology during communism and from high prices of Apple equipment.

Everyone was importing PC parts from Taiwan back in 90s and EVERYONE was building their own PCs (as Dell, HP and Lenovo were too pricey, too).

Kubrak

Time has moved on. And many still build PC at home, or get it assembled at e-shop. As they can choose and have what they exactly want/need, not what manufacturer thinks they want. It is not that Dell/HP/Lenovo are more expensive, probably not, maybe even cheaper, but they bring what they bring.....

Apple computers are still way overpriced comparing to Win platform, here. If they cost half, third, people might move to Macs... Othervise it will not gain much marketshare here. Why to learn new OS, have noone to help around and pay premium.... It does not make sense.

I have miniPC (15x15x8 cm) that is a bit stronger than basic M1, has 64 GB RAM, 2 TB fast SSD and I may add 2 more SATA3 discs, if I want/need. It is dead silent, easy to transport. And cost slightly above 1 000 EUR. How much would cost something like that by Apple?

Maciej Repetowski

Do you buys cars like that? Clothing? Food? Electronics? Always the cheapest option wins?

My next computer is going to be around £5000-£6000. And I checked with Dell and HP and comparable specs are also £5000-6000.

I will not be building my own computer (which would be much cheaper), the same way like I don’t build my own car or raise my own cows and chickens 🤣🤣🤣

Maciej Repetowski

ARM is the future not only for Apple but also for Windows. That’s why Microsoft is distributing ARM dev kits and why they push for native ARM Windows apps, like they never did before.

Qualcomm, Nvidia, Microsoft - they all want to have a piece of ARM cake…

Season

Well, as a computer technician for 19 years, I've learned that you NEVER want to upgrade immediately. As a Mac user for 7 years, after 3 2012 Mac Mini's and 1 2020 (2018) Intel-based Mac Mini all of them still work impeccably with music applications by the way [the only one limited is my i5 Mac mini which I can only use so many plugins on still a lot but limited] I have no qualms from the Mac realm. Just don't upgrade past Mojave if you still have 32 bit plugins or Catalina. Another trick for some strange reason worked for me is install everything on Mojave, then upgrade to Catalina. All this other new ****** within the Operating Systems isn't necessary. It's nice to have or convenient but not necessary. As for M1 and M series Mac's, I ca't say I didn't see this coming from a mile away... Apple let developers get ahold of them for a few months to even play with then started pushing them to the masses... Not enough time to write quality programming code. Developers are still scrambling to make sure everything works correctly. Not a good look on Apple's part. Albeit it's been two years since the 2020 WWDC and NI probably could do better development-wise, only time will tell how this situation will play out. Plus, didn't NI just go through a couple of rounds of firings and a management change in between them over the past few years? If I'm not mistaken, I think I've read about that.

JesterMgee

Lots of decent advice in this thread, also shadowed by about the same amount of one sided ****** too

As someone who is both an Apple user and a PC user (operates 4 PCs, 2 windows laptops, 1 windows server, 2 apple TVs, 4 iPads, 4 iPhones, 1 MBP and 2 Android TVs in my house) I can see both the benefits and pitfalls of both platforms and IMO there is no clear winner, just personal choice.

A redesign of processor architecture is long overdue and IMO when all this current mess is sorted and peoples heads are out of the clouds, we will start to see development with efficiency and better performance. I am also in that boat where I hate how hot my 2019 MBP gets literally when running the damn screensaver but I attribute that more to the floored design of such a slim notebook format with limited cooling.

As has been mentioned, Apple has a hold over developers and will "Force" them (and users) to update to keep up and while it seems like a one sided "do as we say" the trade off is Apple offer Developers the chance to drop old users who don't want to invest in the future by dropping OS support like a hot stick.

As every OS version comes out, one drops off the end and only the latest 3 versions of an OS release are supported. 10.13 was just dropped and that was released in 2017 so while hardware may be fine, no more OS or software support. This means developers can build in upgrade costs for software or subscription renewals to use their plugins/software on the latest OS to pad the time they have to spend constantly updating software... Something you cannot in Windows but granted it is rare to need to update software for Windows as it is based more on a modular framework hence backward compatibility is inherent. So devs can make a lot of extra income just by users updating their OS. Can bet you anything some Apple users have done that latest OS update only to find they now have to purchase the latest plugin bundle to make things work (Waves anyone)...

Flip over to Windows and I have systems in my home still running Windows 7 on 18 year old hardware and working without issue as a media server (Plex, Downloading, Firewall, Backups etc) with most modern software versions still! My main work machine is pushing a good 10+ years with upgraded parts on Windows 10, it's old enough it is not even able to update to Win11 but Win 10 will be supported for another 10 years. I can even load the projects I created when I was just 15 years old back in 1995 in Fasttracker and they play as they did originally.

So Windows may not be the shining light of "innovation" and yes the software and hardware are detached (leaving users to make their own decisions if they so choose) but if you want a more "secure and safe" experience knowing things won't break with the next update or you won't have to wait 6-36 months for software to work with the next OS/Hardware release Windows has always offered this but with the cost of having something not as "perfectly streamlined" and with a little more work involved to learn with somethings not as "out of the box" simple to setup.

So each to their own, both macOS and Windows serve perfectly at crunching numbers it's just a computer at the end of the day. I personally prefer Windows for my main home system because of cost, upgradability and flexibility when it comes to how software works ongoing. I also like my MBP for how efficient it is with power (even as an intel model), the size and use it for everything mobile (data ingest from cameras and audio recorders, basic editing, programming etc) tho having only 2 USB-C ports is a bit of a cop out for a $2100 machine IMO.

What does irritate me about the macOS side tho is that it does seem constantly developers are spending a LOT of time maintaining software for the latest version only to then have to start on the next version. It's just a lot of wasted time which detracts from more important things IMO especially now with this M1 business, that seems a bit of a complication in many areas.