No M1 support's forced me use products from *other* music software makers



  • chk071
    chk071 Member Posts: 246 Advisor
    edited June 2022

    Software development is a complex thing...

    And, yeah, like you, I'm happy to be on Windows. Issues like that are simply non-existant. It's Apple who notoriously change everything, because the solid, reliable stuff is always "out of date". Thus I can only recommend to use Windows, if you want a stable, solid production machine. Apple is rather bleeding edge of technology, especially when they all of a sudden from one day to the other decide that everyone needs to use mobile CPU's.

  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 519 Pro

    Pushing things forward in what is possible with creative tools is something I am happy to see, and I enjoy being a participant.

    It is amazing what we can do in music production today. And it takes a willingness to embrace change for these things to happen.

    To each their own.. but I am an early adopter and glad to be so.

  • Ians
    Ians Member Posts: 8 Member

    Sorry to say I won't be buying anything from NI until they start updating their products to M1. Just releasing new libraries for old software isn't the sort of innovation I came to expect from NI. They seem to have gone backwards in recent years after all the redundancies & buy-outs. I can't see them ever catching up with the competition.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,049 Expert

    Libraries are for Kontakt. And Kontakt is the both VST3 and native Apple Silicon compatible. So, producing new libraries adds utility of Kontakt for M1 users, who want/need to run natively.

    So, what is the problem in this case?

    I agree, that it would be nice if NI transition to native AS would be faster. But my opinion is, that it should be payed service for M1 users. They do not have licence for M1 chip and transition is costly. It should not be for free.

  • asdf-is-already-taken
    asdf-is-already-taken Member Posts: 1 Newcomer

    Oh come on mate. Intel has had the market cornered for 10 years now and what we got for it is stagnation and complacency. Their stubborn insistence on the now bloated x86 for reasons of backwards compatibility is probably where all the bodies are buried for them when it comes to power consumption (their hardware cisc to risc encoder that's embedded into each and every one of their processors). My 16" 2019 MBP can't even do a video call without catching on fire. Since when is a 100 degrees an acceptable thermal envelope? I can understand Apple's frustration. Moreover, Apple's strategy is vertical integration. Windows is more about modularity. Each have their strengths. But I think the M1 is a huge leap forward in silicon by any objective measure. I personally wouldn't want to move away from Core Audio. That architecture is far more elegant than what you get on Windows and it's been around for a long time so you can't really call it bleeding edge.

    My new MBP M1Pro is amazing. Just as fast as the fastest PCs out there and dead silent. Endless battery life and sips power. What's not to like? It's a music makers dream.

    Apple will deprecate Rosetta2. No question about that. They did the same thing back in 2005 when they switched to Intel. NI has had ample time to transition. It's been two years and they've managed to transition one product. I don't think that's reasonable on their part. The official line is they're allocating maximum effort but that's kind of a nothing line. One product in two years is pretty shabby. Everyone else pretty much have done better. I have thousands tied up in the NI eco system. Waiting two years for them to get their act together is actually kind of unacceptable. Especially since small developers like U-he and ValhallaDSP can turn this around in less than half that time. Hell, ever DAW now native except for Pro Tools. And that's far more complicated than Kontakt. But as far as Windows being a stable platform etc etc it's not any better than what Apple can do. Just different strengths. And just wait. You'll eat those words pretty soon when Microsoft decides to ditch Intel and follow Apple with their own vertical integration strategy. Windows on ARM is coming and probably a lot sooner than you think.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,049 Expert

    1) Win on ARM has been here for years. Just users are sort of missing....

    2) Backward compatibility is good... And AMD shows that it does not cost that much energy... OK, it costs some silicon.

    3) I agree with you, that Intel did bad job in past eight, ten years....

    4) Apple will depreciate Rosetta 2, few years before Rosetta 3 comes....

    5) Why do you think, Pro Tools are far more complicated than Kontakt, or Reaktor?

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 418 Pro

    1) Users need compatibility. Win ARM was a failure in that field.

    2) Why windows couldn’t deliver it? Strategy is the key. Apple is doing it rightly (as usual)

    3) And that lagged the whole industry includding embed devices like M+ or MPCs. Almost Akai got iMPC2 from iPad and port it into embed platform and performance seems ok and stability controlled.

    4) Rosetta deprecation will come when standard software (Adobe, Ableton, Final Cut, DaVinci Resolve…) become native and plugins (waves, iZotope, maxforlive…) get it too. That’s why say “clock is running…”. Most of them are reaching that point meanwhile NI… not.

    5) ProTools is way more complicated than Kontakt because it’s a full DAW. It should even let run Kontakt inside it and manage the machine resources against the software requeriments without crashing. Just only for that it ten million times harder since it need to do it with most plugins they can (some due are standards on their own some because if they work, let’s say, inside Cubase or Ableton will be a nail in the coffin of so-dated standard which is ProTools itself. Avid can’t permit that if they want to keep their “DeFacto standard” status. I tried to explain this long ago to you byt you still discuss “basic concepts” here and there making me believe you don’t know anything about music production fields standards (in fact your statement about never tried mac computers makes it even more ridiculous…) but you had become the “AMD fanboy” by yourself at NI forums…

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,049 Expert

    1) Yes, users need compatibility, that is why most users prefer Win. And from Win they prefer x86 over ARM.

    2) Yes and no. Apple brought cheap M1 notebooks and fooled users by comparing M1 just to Intel.... Apple can do it like that, because it is in monopoly position for Mac products....

    3) Yes Intel has lagged industry. Partly maybe intentionaly (no real competition), partly because he had serious problems to leave 14nm node. But it has already been 5 years since AMD Zen1 has hit the road. And AMD was back in game.

    4) Clock is running for sure. Roseta 3 comming soon.

    5) OK, if Pro Tools are more complicated to port than any NI product, and it is THE STANDARD, Apple will wait with Rosetta 2 depreciation till ProTools get AS native.

    Yes I like AMD CPUs right now, as AMD brought competition to x86 again, which is good thing for all. If Intel or Apple would deliver excellent processors for x86, I might switch my opinion and become fan of their brand.

  • Maciej Repetowski
    Maciej Repetowski Member Posts: 127 Advisor
    edited June 2022

    Ad 4: Please, I understand you are very knowledgeable about PC platform but saying thing like “Rosetta 3 coming soon” when you have no knowledge of Apple platform and as you admitted yourself some time ago, no one you know personally is a Mac user - this just makes your statements funny.

    There’s no going back to AMD or Intel and there will be no Rosetta 3 because the thing Apple loves most is to have full control over their hardware.

    Ad 5: Apple waits for nobody. Apple will force Avid to provide native ProTools by deprecating Rosetta 2, as soon as they stop selling last Intel Macs (6-12 months from now). They will actually force everyone, including NI and those who will not - will fade into oblivion, the same as it was with transition from PPC to Intel. And if you think large company like NI can afford to loose Mac users and become PC only - you’re dreamer.

    You always speak about Apple like it is some exotic company only weirdos buy products from - this is Trillion dollar company, one of the biggest in the world. If they wanted, they could have bought AMD, Avid or NI without even blinking an eye. You, my friend, could really use some reading on how big Apple really is 🤣

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,049 Expert

    My guess is Rosetta 3 will come. Maybe not back to x86, but Apple doesn't seem to be able to keep pace with x86... M3 will decide... Of course, I may be wrong.

    Apple might love to have full controll over the things.... But it does not mean they must be able to sustainably develop stronger and stronger CPUs for computers.

    If Apple depreciates Rosetta 2 in a year, there is still 1/3 of time to the end. And Apple might depreciate it even later...

    My guess is NI will have AS compatibility in few months. They could hardly release K14 without AS native compatibility.... And K14 might be released in two, three months, if things will go as usual.

    I know two people who use Mac. It is their first computer and someone has told them it is better for Traktor than Win. They have to call and pay the guy who maintains it for them as noone around them knows Macs....

  • Maciej Repetowski
    Maciej Repetowski Member Posts: 127 Advisor
    edited June 2022

    And I can pop to Apple Store in Norwich (my city), do hands-on demo of everything Apple sells and get help there, if needed.

    Eastern Europe is so bizarre sometimes (I’m originally from Poland, so I know about it first hand) - dominant PC position there stems from US embargo on technology during communism and from high prices of Apple equipment.

    Everyone was importing PC parts from Taiwan back in 90s and EVERYONE was building their own PCs (as Dell, HP and Lenovo were too pricey, too).

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,049 Expert
    edited June 2022

    Time has moved on. And many still build PC at home, or get it assembled at e-shop. As they can choose and have what they exactly want/need, not what manufacturer thinks they want. It is not that Dell/HP/Lenovo are more expensive, probably not, maybe even cheaper, but they bring what they bring.....

    Apple computers are still way overpriced comparing to Win platform, here. If they cost half, third, people might move to Macs... Othervise it will not gain much marketshare here. Why to learn new OS, have noone to help around and pay premium.... It does not make sense.

    I have miniPC (15x15x8 cm) that is a bit stronger than basic M1, has 64 GB RAM, 2 TB fast SSD and I may add 2 more SATA3 discs, if I want/need. It is dead silent, easy to transport. And cost slightly above 1 000 EUR. How much would cost something like that by Apple?

  • Maciej Repetowski
    Maciej Repetowski Member Posts: 127 Advisor

    Do you buys cars like that? Clothing? Food? Electronics? Always the cheapest option wins?

    My next computer is going to be around £5000-£6000. And I checked with Dell and HP and comparable specs are also £5000-6000.

    I will not be building my own computer (which would be much cheaper), the same way like I don’t build my own car or raise my own cows and chickens 🤣🤣🤣

  • Mutis
    Mutis Member Posts: 418 Pro

    All of us could be wrong like all of us defend what we believe is the best scenario for future. The point is x86 scenario doesn’t seems the best for possible future based on actual released technology instead “on paper promises”. Obviously some technologies could be released in the future (RiscV is an example) and some improvements in OS field could be done and disrupt the disruption but based on how history has gone until now Apple is doing getting the positiom they worked for from first iPhone (when they decide to build new chip paradigm instead going for intel atom).

    If you look fom the user POV or from brand POV you could understand why and how but if you keep looking at it only from personal preferences and limited market (no Apple in your country) then you are missing the big picture and missleading other users into your narrow vision which is respectable since you are just an user.

    What’s unnacceptable is NI doing the same because they have an historic debt lagged by x86 dependency.

    Obviously each user will ask for their interests and asking NI for AS support is what Apple users will do. If that’s a problem or not for NI (related to market studies revenue vs real world market revenue) could concern us but in the end is how NI handles it.

    We can’t build a 1:1 relation between M+ delays, AS priorization after discussing in the old forum “they weren’t unaware” (maybe Soundwide integration are solution but part of the problem) and delays…. But what’s a fact is NI is late and that has a price in trust. AS adoption will be received as step in the right direction and the fattest and the most stable they can release the better. It’s what professional brands are doing and Apple is consolidating their position as DeFacto platform standard for creative professionals (music, video, graphic designers…) and probably they are tweaking the foundation for Apple Workstations even they know the biggest slice of the market isn’t there, just to get visibilization across the full market getting proposals on every segment. That’s basic marketing knowledge and, until today, rules the capitalistic world we live in.

  • Maciej Repetowski
    Maciej Repetowski Member Posts: 127 Advisor
    edited June 2022

    ARM is the future not only for Apple but also for Windows. That’s why Microsoft is distributing ARM dev kits and why they push for native ARM Windows apps, like they never did before.

    Qualcomm, Nvidia, Microsoft - they all want to have a piece of ARM cake…

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