Kontrol S-Series MK3 - Feeling like a beta tester. :(
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😂😂😂
That was a good one!
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I don't know how many ways I can reiterate that this was a data-driven decision.
We know how many products we sell.
We know how many users opt-in to data tracking.
Therefore we know what our sample size is.
We know what that sample size owns, does and does not do with the products that they own.
I have been abundantly transparent, perhaps more than I should have been, because this was an extremely tough decision to have to make, but the ends simply did not justify the means.
I understand why users who like the integration with Maschine and Kontrol S MK2 would be upset that it's not available in Kontrol S MK3 should they choose to purchase a MK3 (note that the MK2 is still supported). And I think it's perfectly natural for unhappy users to express this, and to ask about the reasons why.
And you may see those users, as I do too. But that is not the same thing as the sheer user numbers that informed a tough decision.
That is simply the facts of the matter. I cannot change those facts. Nor is "suits" and "devs" helpful or accurate. Kontrol S MK3 has been in development for a long time, behind which is a unified team of people.
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Hi again @Matthew_NI
We have heard you talk of the data tracking and the data-driven decision making, at length over the past 8 or so weeks since these products (Mk3 hardware and KK3 software) were released into the wild, and yet here on NI's own web forum, NI's own employees are still having to defend their corporate decision making and try to explain and justify their actions to what NI presumably regards now as "the minority" of NI hardware and software users, albeit vociferous ones...
Being one of "the minority" I will be making a decision at the point at which my Mk1 assumes the role of a "MIDI controller" as to whether to invest in newer NI hardware or not. In the meantime I have made a decision perhaps temporarily, to NOT invest further in any NI software.
I fully expect you to say "well that is your choice and you've made it" but I do wonder how many of the "silent" majority the NI company has alienated over the past 8 weeks or so, that are thinking along similar lines to me, and whether your data is telling you this or not... probably not...
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Everyone is entitled to make their own decisions on what to use, and where to invest.
I stand behind our decision to end support for Kontrol S MK1, after bringing it to Apple Silicon, and patching it twice since end of support in response to community feedback. I also stand behind our decisions to continue to support MK2, and the integration it comes with, as well as invest in the transition to MK3 and the new features it has to offer.
Those were all decisions we, the team behind the product, took. I'd like to make a distinction between whatever you see as "employees defending NI corporate decision making" and what I see as us here to talk through the decisions made during the development process, by those closest to the products.
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@Matthew_NI , I think maybe one point is missed here or keeps getting oversimplified. I do not expect the same overlapping integration with Maschine that the KK Mk2 has (like all the extra buttons that already exist on the Machine mk3). I am simply saying, I can't use the Kontrol Mk3 with Machine software like I can with other DAWs (Ableton, Cubase, etc.) unless I'm loading in an instance of Kontakt7, then I get the browser and controls on the K-mk3. But not for any other plugins. This I think is because Maschine's plugin browser/loader is basically Komplete Kontrol. And now you guys have forked KK and obviously Maschine is running on the older version, which is why the browser doesn't work on the K-mk3. And there is your conflict... You guys should have waited to release this thing until you had a better story. That's really the biggest disappointment here. No real roadmap, no clues for us loyal users as to what to expect in this ecosystem we've invested so much time and money into.
I have since stopped using Maschine almost entirely (aside from using M+ in standalone as a sequencer for my hardware synth rig). It's sad really because I really prefer the Maschine workflow over Ableton's session view for composing/writing/sketching.
So great... now I have 2 Maschine mk3s that are sitting on the shelf, better sell them soon before they're not worth anything eh? :(
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On one thing we must give credit to Matthew: he is very firm on his decisions. Which…on the other hand…sadly could also be read like “not giving a f about what others say”…
Yes…I’m convinced now: no “corporate decisions” behind this turnaround. Just a bunch of developers who decided to change the rules on what we invested so much.
Really more reassuring…
BTW: thanks for the honesty to finally say “…our DECISION to end support for Kontrol S MK1”.
And sorry if some of us are so annoying to still reiterate our rants for such a long time. But we will have to live with your DECISIONS for the rest of our days…so…
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Well, NI made their decisions and I've made mine...
For some time now, I just use Maschine and Kontakt as plugins in my DAW. That's it.
Reaktor, Massive, FM8, Battery 4 are just barely maintained husks of software, their previous glory fading away. NI said that no functionality updates for those are in the pipeline...
Absynth is dead and gone.
Massive X is a work in progress, which is somehow not progressing, despite many requests from users. The browser without audio previews and keyboard navigation support is just an embarrassment.
No, I will not use KK as a wrapper, just to have audio previews, thank you very much...
If Kontakt could open drum kits from Expansions and Maschine Library, I would ditch Maschine, too.
And to think that just a few years ago, I was an avid fan of NI, invested in their hardware/software ecosystem. I used to be in a "minority" group of users who used KK MK2 keyboard with Maschine software and I've loved that workflow. Well, this is no more.
Just so sad - their vision for the future is obviously not my vision. I wonder what harm they are going to do with Maschine and how "happy" we will all be about it, as users.
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I think that as more and more of the direction that NI is heading is revealed and released, there will be more and more "converts" happily embracing this path.
2023 has (in my opinion) been a pivotal year in NI getting its "new feet" established after the big managerial changes and integration with iZotope.
I am more optimistic than ever that some very innovative and creative music tools will emerge/evolve throughout 2024.
Great way to be wrapping up 2023!
A new foundation has been laid and new pieces are falling into place.
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Optimism is good, I too am hopeful that there will be offerings in the near future that will pull all this together. As I have said many times, it's the lack of a published plan that disappoints me the most and does erode my faith in NI in general. :( I will not be buying anything else from NI (not that there is much left to buy that I don't already own!) until it is made a lot more clear on the direction they are going with their software.
It is certainly on me that I bought into a new(ish) ecosystem that was clearly not established yet. I guess I just had higher expectations that there would be some sort of committed roadmap at this point and that they would at least make support for Maschine a priority as it IS their main DAW(like) software. If there is a roadmap, they certainly aren't sharing it, as Matthew has said a few times through these threads.
Oh, one more thing... Banner ads in Native Access? Really?
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@Jezric I think that's a really fair point regarding the basic transport controls over the deeper integration. It also deserves a response and I recognize we've been hyper focussed on the larger integration in discussions. So...
- Kontrol S MK3 is an embedded device (the logic has shifted to on-device vs. on-desktop)
- This is true for all integrations (e.g. a DAW integration) and all features it currently has or will have (e.g. Play Assist standalone coming early next year).
- Building a Maschine integration onto this embedded device is still a decent effort, because it's ground up, new, and mostly a plumbing job before anything can be hooked up. It may not be as much effort as the big screens-on-device (MK2) effort, but still much of the work is front loaded.
- Although it's true that all forms of integration were deprioritized due to low usage numbers, I can certainly consider with the team some form of middle ground or compromise by delivering the basic transport integration at some point.
- I cannot promise that, and it's not on any roadmap for 2024 yet. But I'm listening, and will mull that with. the team. It may still be too much effort for too few users, given other things we want to build for y'all, but we'll see.
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I know better than to repeat past mistakes I've seen when companies publish committed roadmaps, and then plans change. That ends up making everyone even more unhappy. We're also a private company, with competition, so we really aren't at liberty to be super forthcoming beyond a certain near term time frame. And at least for the next-up priorities, I'm being as transparent as I can.
Regarding banner ads, I think there are some threads talking about this on the Kontakt and Native Access forum areas, and you're not the only user who feels that way. At the same time, a lot of users have actually used those ads (NA2) or suggestions (Kontakt) to subsequently demo or purchase. I don't think it's binary. I think users should have the ability to enable or disable certain things.
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I'm explaining why the decisions were made. Transparency and context may not always be appreciated, but that's not even remotely the same thing as "not giving an f about what others say". People ask why a certain change has happened, and I'm able to explain why, as well as what's happening next (which is informed more by the usage data we collect than whoever speaks loudest).
I have no idea what you mean by "honesty to finally say", as there's an entire thread dedicated to Kontrol S MK1 end of life where we've been very up front about the why: our new tech stack is not compatible with that hardware.
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Exactly. And…who wrote that new tech stack to not be compatible with that hardware?
Again we are back to the same point…not something that could not be done…something you decided.
I wrote “honesty to finally say” because that (now dead) thread was full of “can not”, “it’s not compatible”,… Now you finally said you decided not to make it compatible, not that it was not possible
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all those talks and writings to flee the fact you simply ended up deciding not to Include the usuals python files necessary to keep things running smoothly. Made my day
with all due respect for your work and the purity of your intentions it’ll be worth what it’s worth . Not very inspiring really so far.
I won’t interrogate myself too much about wether I should be a follower or not in those commercial or managerial expensive « just in case » out of the blue approches .
would be so nice real good news for once
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I don't quite follow, I'm afraid. These products are not built in Python?
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