Using Komplete Kontrol causing my DAW (Reaper) to freeze every 5 minutes (KBDSW-7859)

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Answers

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 3,075 Expert
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/204920#Comment_204920

    Again - you are assuming that this:

    "It's a matter of properly regression testing KK 3.x.x so that it works like KK 2.9.6 did - in Reaper or any other VST3 host. "

    Is automatically a given? That would also mean that the code for v2.9.6 is somehow identical to v3.3.x? Or that operation of v3.3.x is identical to v2.9.6. There could be a multitude of technical reasons why this does not work.

    Also still do not understand why the Reaper DEVS automatically get a pass here either. Is their app code so perfect that it is 100% not possible for Reaper itself to be contributing to this issue?

    No one knows anything about is really going on except NI DEVS (and jeez I hope the Reaper DEVS).

    I hope Chris_NI gets you guys an update when possible.

    VP

  • Erwinew
    Erwinew Member Posts: 79 Member
    edited January 19

    @Vocalpoint Thanks for explaining your relation with NI. This makes sense as I have completely different experiences.

    All NI VST3 plugins must be developed according to Steinberg's VST3 C++ specification. This is the reason why any VST3 plugin is supposed to work in a DAW which fully support VST3, no magic.

    REAPER has been fully developed according to this VST3 specification and this is the reason why all other VST3 plugins from a wide number of manufactures works, except KK3.

    Maybe NI has had technical conversations with the Reaper crew and specific technical requirements cannot be agreed upon.

    AFAIK, there is no agreement between NI and REAPER. We officially requested NI the DAW integration specification to implement in REAPER. After a couple of emails, the NI KK3 product owner smashed the door immediately:

    I checked with the developers and product owner and was told that we do not publish the MIDI DAW Protocol, so there is nothing further I can do to assist you with this.
    Sorry about that but there's nothing more I can offer from a support perspective.

    End discussion. Do you really think it is possible to reach the point to negotiate about an NDA with this attitude if your name is not Steinberg or Ableton? It is the people at NI who tries to determine the market without doing market research that REAPER is a mature and widely used DAW with active users.

    Are you aware that none of the NI VST3 plugins lists which DAW's are supported? In other words you are lucky if your favorite VST3 plugin works in your DAW and there is nothing more than this forum or customer support by email: We tried to negotiate with NI funding this bugfix. We did not even reach the point to negotiate about our budget. Hard answer: "Premium support is not available", end discussion. We spent our 2024 studio budged on a competitor and are phasing out NI.

    In the mean time we've completely reverse engineered the KK3 protocols and already have a full working prototype with KK3 DAW integration in REAPER and created full documentation which has been rejected to share with us. We cannot release official DAW integration in REAPER as KK3 freezes REAPER. Now we've wasted time and money. With this answer I hope this explains that only people with insufficient technical knowledge are spreading the message "REAPER is not support as KK3 is not in the list of supported DAW integrations". This message should stop now!

    KK3 is a generic VST3 plugin which should be able to run in any DAW without the Kontrol display/buttons/rotary functionality. When loosing KK3 window focus, REAPER freezes.

    Bottom line - if this was an easy fix - it would be easy.

    No: When someone started a technical analysis like we did, then you can justify the amount of work to fix this problem. We classified as "easy" as with early releases of Kontakt 7 also crashed Cubase and REAPER with similar behavior. This is an indication that NI should take a look at KK3 VST3 plugin as they are the developers of KK3 and only NI is able to start a debug session. The problem is that NI rejected to start an investigation and abuses "REAPER is not support". This is their easiest way out to avoid supporting their products and fully focus on new product development which takes years. So far, no developer replied something like: "This is too much work or too complicated to fix which takes man-months of work." Then it is a completely different story and understandable.

    The REAPER developers confirmed that KK3 is deployed in binary and makes it impossible for us to investigate further. KK 2.x.x has been deprecated and the only way forward is KK 3.

    Let's see who will be faster: A reply from @Chris_NI or another customer who purchased a Komplete keyboard which is not aware that KK3 freezes REAPER and found this unsolvable thread.

    Please create an account and let your voice hear.

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 3,075 Expert
    edited January 19

    @Erwinew

    "All NI VST3 plugins must be developed according to Steinberg's VST3 C++ specification. This is the reason why any VST3 plugin is supposed to work in a DAW which fully support VST3, no magic".

    "Supposed to work" and "do work" are two completely different things. If I had a nickel for every plugin that I came across that did not support the Steinberg spec….just sayin. Do not read too much into this. While the thought is logical (and quaint) - the reality is - shall we just say - different.

    And for fun - the other day I tried to load KK up into Wavelab 12.2 (A perfect example of an app that should follow the Steinberg VST3 spec to a T - as it is actually from Steinberg) and KK does not work there either. So this is a bit of stretch.

    "When someone started a technical analysis like we did"

    Who is "we" - exactly? If you are not an NI or REAPER developer - who actually knows the code for these products - suffice to say - regardless of your analysis - that does not make you qualified to make a call on the issue.

    "The REAPER developers confirmed that KK3 is deployed in binary and makes it impossible for us to investigate further. KK 2.x.x has been deprecated and the only way forward is KK 3."

    And please do not allow the Reaper DEVS off the hook - for the record - EVERYTHING in shipping proprietary product from any vendor is in binary. Until NI and REAPER share "actual" code - the kind you can type and read and especially compile into a working binary - in an editor like Visual Studio Code - then and only then - can this issue be analyzed, debugged, and corrected (if possible)

    Finally - this:

    "The problem is that NI rejected to start an investigation and abuses "REAPER is not support". This is their easiest way out to avoid supporting their products and fully focus on new product development which takes years"

    I cannot speak to NI's position on Reaper. Or whether this issue has been rejected or whatever. Hopefully Chris_NI can shed the required light on this.

    But - they have been very clear that Reaper is NOT supported. That said - respectfully - I really do not think that NI are trying to burn the Reaper crowd on purpose either.

    For a comparative - I had the same sort of issue with Presonus and iZotope (for literally years) with the implementation of RX Connect in Studio One. Must have typed a bloody novel to them on trying to get this going. No is exactly what I got. Loud and clear. Didn't like it - but learned to live with it.

    You win some and lose some. All I can offer is be prepared for any answer - good, bad or silent.

    VP

  • jazz_fan
    jazz_fan Member Posts: 7 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/204922#Comment_204922

    I'm not assuming anything. NI released KK 3 over a year ago and it immediately crashed Reaper and that wasn't the only problem with KK 3. Of course the KK 3 code isn't identical to KK 2.9.6 - KK 3 crashes Reaper. Nobody (including Cockos/Reaper) gets a pass, but NI after reproducing the problem has thus far decided not to work on solving the problem: alone, or with the Reaper developers.

    @Vocalpoint says: « And for fun - the other day I tried to load KK up into Wavelab 12.2 (A perfect example of an app that should follow the Steinberg VST3 spec to a T - as it is actually from Steinberg) and KK does not work there either. »

    Thank you for this data point. If Wavelab 12.2 is a compliant VST3 host, that it simply more evidence that KK3 is non-compliant.

    -Steve

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 3,075 Expert
    edited January 19

    @jazz_fan

    "If Wavelab 12.2 is a compliant VST3 host, that it simply more evidence that KK3 is non-compliant"

    Doesn't really prove anything either way - except that all "compliant" VST3 hosts have their own rules.

    Wavelab is built by Steinberg, is a fully compliant VST3 host (if there ever was one) - but it is an audio editor - not a DAW like say Studio One is. It does not even allow VST3 instruments to appear for selection let alone a standalone "host" environment like KK.

    I really had to hack my system here to even get it to appear but it could not be loaded. That is by design for WL and does not make me think the KK v2.9.6 is suddenly "non-compliant". This is simply an extreme forced case of a hard mismatch - which did not surprise me at all.

    VP

  • jazz_fan
    jazz_fan Member Posts: 7 Member

    @Vocalpoint

    Thank you for your edification. The way you were speaking I thought Wavelab was a DAW. My bad.

  • Erwinew
    Erwinew Member Posts: 79 Member

    All I can offer is be prepared for any answer

    You can help with convincing NI management that there is business case when this problem is finally solved:

    We tried to make music in a professional studio environment using REAPER and I am one of the developers who built multiple integrations in past >16 years. I talk in "we" as multiple professional developers looked into this to find a solution.

    Our studio production manager decided for last year not to renew licenses for NI because of this topic. Additionally, Black Friday deals are skipped, the offer to fund fixing this problem has been rejected (offline conversation with NI). For this quarter, we will again not invest in multi-seat licenses and expand with new hardware.

    If you think you know better than us how to analyze and resolve this problem, please help us. It is more than welcome. With a small investment of fixing the issue, the more sales it can magically generate for NI.

    @Matthew_NI transferred KK support to @Chris_NI which is listed as an inactive moderator.

  • nvaleri
    nvaleri Member Posts: 9 Member

    @Jeremy_NI You were active in this conversation early on. Can you offer some insight into these ongoing issues? @Chris_NI hasn't been active on the community forums since early November 2024. Maybe we should be asking someone else from the Komplete Kontrol team?

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 3,075 Expert
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/205109#Comment_205109

    @Erwinew

    I am just another user - just like you. While I sympathize with the issue (very similar to what I went thru with Presonus) I have no skin in this game, do not use Reaper and have zero pull with NI.

    But as a pro developer - no one should need to explain to you how this works. You already know the general dev process, the priorities, the resourcing, the business decisions and all the rest of the "when" on something like this.

    You should also know that your business case - which of course - is of maximum importance to you - may not matter at all to anyone else. NI (like any business) has their own priorities, marching orders and directives.

    Your studio crew sound like a dedicated bunch of professionals and if you really want to "resolve" this problem - do like any pro would - and make a decision. Carry on with Reaper and spend your budget elsewhere. Or get with a DAW that is better supported with your selected NI product and forget this thread ever existed.

    But hanging out here - waiting for who knows how long - for an answer (that may never come) - makes no sense to me. I learned this the hard way with my little Presonus/Izotope thing - until I was basically told to buzz off.

    I do hope you guys catch a break and hopefully Chris_NI can give you some clarity.

    VP

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