Komplete Kontrol 3.40 and Novation LK29 MK4 hardware integration test

Skijumptoes

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/213276#Comment_213276

I've written my own DAW integration with Launchkey for Cubase, and Bitwig. I don't know what kind of experience you have, but the idea that it needs new hardware and device-specific drivers is really mis-informed.

You don't need device-specific drivers for devices such as the Launchkey, as it's screen is controllable using MIDI SysEx (Doc Linked) which is standard MIDI protocol, Using standard ASCII character mapping.

Conceptually, it's a few lines of code to translate the text that goes to A/M devices and have it directed to the Launchkey, so it's far from unreasonable. Especially considering the size of this third party integration announcement being one of the NI headliners at NAMM.

As I said above, I don't want to moan or argue about it, it is what it is. However, The knowledge needs to be put out there for anyone buying these devices, so they're under no illusions as to what they're getting.

No doubt this will be addressed in the future for LK, and magically, it won't require new hardware or device-specific drivers. :)

iNate

I'm talking about beyond Launchkey, because Novation aren't the only vendors that they have introduced support for. I understand what thread this is, but I was speaking generally - and my post made it crystal clear that I was speaking generally. There is also Akai, M-Audio and others.

It's simply a far superior strategy for these controllers to use a single driver model that allows Komplete Kontrol to interact with them the way it does with Komplete Kontrol controllers. SysEx is nice, but a Driver communicating directly with the device is a superior user experience. Snappier and more robust.

Additionally, we need controllers that are laid out for NKS support. The whole "Press Arp and Latch to change Presets" or "Press these pads to do XYZ" is hilariously unintuitive.

Some of these controllers are REALLY laggy when it comes to things like changing Presets on my machines (I have 3 machines here to test, and none of them are weak).

I'm not using this on my Oxygen Pro (I also have a Launchkey). This is wear out my buttons in record time because of how they have done the mapping.

IMO, they should have published a MIDI Implementation to allow us to just create our own Mapping with the controller editors. I would have done a far better job myself...

No one has to write integration for Cubase with Launchkey MK3 or MK4. The former has stock support and the latter has MIDI Remote Scripts from Novation for Cubase. Same with Bitwig Studio. Not sure what that is supposed to mean.

Are you DrivenByMoss?

Skijumptoes

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/213655#Comment_213655

Well, in fairness this is a Launchkey thread and you said that it's unrealistic expectations that I had. I wasn't referring to beyond LK as haven't tried the others.

What I was pointing out if you know the technicalities it's really quite achievable for any hobbyist to do display feedback, let alone the NI development team. And that's what I believe 'integration' should be, this is no different to plain MIDI CC mapping, nothing new.

It's rather been spliced in so that these hardware vendors are now giving out free KK Selects to their customers, that's why the announcement at NAMM - it's a sales drive to get more users on the NI ladder. Should I have expected more as an existing user that it was genuine integration more akin to A/M series? I dunno.. But I did.

As for no-one wanting to write integration for Cubase and Launchkey, well..

My integration has multi-page instrument and multi-page FX/Inserts support, also pages for addition functions such as preset browsing using Cubase mediabay, quickly accessing each plugin slot, cycling through on-screen focused elements, and string replacement to make parameter names more user-friendly and repeatable.

All with LK's screen feedback, of course. ;)

The stock implementation is great out the box, but limited to quick controls. As I have my instruments already mapped out like:

Page 1 - Oscillator 1

Page 2 - Oscillator 2

Page 3 - Oscillator 3 (if exists)

Page 4 - Filter

Page 5 - Filter Env

Page 6 - Amp Env

etc.

So, I like to make use of it where I can to shadow something similar to a hardware setup.

And no, not Moss, but love what he does and took a lot of inspiration with his mappings for Reaper. I'm hoping to do something with Push 2/3 for Cubase. But to be honest, it distracts me from doing music so trying to resist it as I can see that being a rabbits hole! Plus working on Kontrol Mk3 hehe :)

iNate

Well, in fairness this is a Launchkey thread and you said that it's unrealistic expectations that I had. 

1. I addressed this in my reply.
2. The expectations are still unrealistic. "IMO"…

A big issue with delivering what you want is the fact that Komplete Kontrol does not have anything like the Cubase MIDI Remote System. I think they want a more generic platform that controller manufacturers to target, over the long term. It's the only way to get around some of the current limitations of the system as it is currently implemented (e.g. things working differentlly when the DAW controls the MIDI Ports - like Soft Takeover, etc.).

I wasn't referring to beyond LK as haven't tried the others.

The others work in literally the same way as the Launchkey. Unreliable Pickup Behavior, Unintuitive Mapping (with buttons that literally do nothing in some cases), Laggy Response, etc.

It's rather been spliced in so that these hardware vendors are now giving out free KK Selects to their customers, that's why the announcement at NAMM - it's a sales drive to get more users on the NI ladder. 

Yes, they're trying to sell Komplete to more users.

To me, the biggest issue with NKS is not the lack of support for other controllers. It is the requirement to run almost everything in Komplete Kontrol in order to access it.

Getting people to buy Komplete may work in some cases, but I don't see anyone buying it because of how these controllers work with Komplete Kontrol - given the user experience in general.

Anyone who would have done this is already using A/M series controllers.

Never thought of this before, but did they give their own users a free A/M Series owners a free Komplete Select Bundle?

Skijumptoes

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/213964#Comment_213964

Ok, i'm being unrealistic. I shall lower expectations accordingly.

Well done NI, good job with the LK integrations, exactly as expected as an end user. 🙄

iNate

Cynicism is not a counterpoint.

You basically expect these controllers to work as well as an A/M Series simply because they rushed to put out a solution that works "well enough" for people who own these controllers - which were never designed with NKS support in mind.

Again, A/M series are in the same price brackets as those controllers and people who wanted this could have simply gotten one of those.

You don't buy their controller, then you get on the forums and dictate to them how much better they should have made this for you.

To me, that is an unrealistic expectation. Show some gratitude and look forward to better controllers being released in the future, which have tighter integration.

I've already stated that this implementation is mediocre.

My posts in this very thread have made that very clear, so your horrible attempt at being cheeky is not appreciated.

I'm not going to continue to go back and forth with that. Enjoy your day.

You don't have to argue with me like I work for them. They don't get their directives from me. This is just a discussion forum.

Skijumptoes

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/214170#Comment_214170

It's not cynicism, it's being realistic. And I said in my first post on this subject that I don't want to moan about it, but you started to bring in some crazy ideas that new hardware and device drivers would need to be written which was nonsense, so I corrected you.

As a result, I've simply lowered my expectations as an NI customer based on what you and a few others have presented, one comment that stands out is from a 3,000 post user of 10 years who basically said the same thing through their experience, to not have such expectations.

It doesn't change my underlying feelings of what could and should have been achieved, because yes, I had much higher expectations of their abilities to do a decent level of integration.

But this backed on the reasoning that i've always looked up to NI as one of the leaders in the audio world. And also, as quoted here, a member of staff directly responded to me that it was going to be A/M level of integration.

So, will take your advice and show some gratitude for what little they've done in the name of 'integration', hide my disappointment, and look forward to what they can do in the future. …If I still remain invested in their products, of course. (Which I hope to be)

Simon_NI

@Chilled Thanks for your feedback.

You're right that this first iteration provides a limited level of integration. It's based on pre-built MIDI templates which map the controls of the supported devices to the most common NKS parameter controls.

As noted in this thread, these devices were not designed with NKS in mind, and their on-device processing capabilities are relatively limited — but for a lot of people, this is a step up vs having to understand manual MIDI Mapping. And because this is based on MIDI 1, which is a uni-directional protocol, we can't easily write data back to the screens on the device.

As I mentioned in my quarterly blog post, we are working on a deeper level of integration that will launch later this year. This builds on the existing NI Hardware Integration Service and will allow more on-device control of navigation, preset browsing, and parameter value display. Getting this working reliably with many devices from many manufacturers in many DAWs is non-trivial - so we wanted to release something simple, sooner, and follow up with the deeper integration that, while it requires more setup steps, will do many of the things you request in your original post.

Again, thank you for your feedback, and your custom over the years.

iNate

I tried the Launchkey MK3 on a Mac and it does have parameter pickup in Komplete Kontrol for the 270 degree encoders when run under Logic Pro. I haven't tried Cubase, but perhaps the issue with this has to do with how the MIDI is handled when certain DAWs are controlling the MIDI Ports (because on Windows it does work properly when Komplete Kontrol is run standalone, but not when it is run as a plug-in in Cubase or Bitwig).

The only issue remains the weird pad mapping which is something you have to consciously remember by rote, since it has no relation to the labels on the keyboard. Unfortunately, that's unavoidable on current hardware (except NI's own, obviously).

@Simon_NI Any plans to bring NKS to Maschine controllers (MK3/Plus)?