Does the NI Forum Community Culture need a change?
Comments
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Hoping to be proved wrong, I think that “everyone participates in a poll” is quite optimistic. The polls I’ve seen had a very low number of participants.
But for sure It doesn’t require a big effort, therefore why not. If it fails, it fails.
Unless results like “on 10 participants, 8 voted that. Therefore 80% of all our users want that” are taken seriously 😂
The only risk is, being forums places where a lot of people are registered but few interact, that if really a lot of people will vote, many people that never wrote in the past and never will in the future will dictate how the ones active have to behave…and then they will disappear…leaving the guys who use the forums having to do what the ghosts tell them they have to do 😏
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Btw: I noticed I never expressed my opinion on the matter.
My opinion being…that I think all of this is over exaggerated.
I’m a lucky guy in being the type that doesn’t matter too much if someone misbehaves. If you want to call me by names, do it. If you are arrogant, be it. The maximum that will happen is that I will answer you. Or I’ll leave you alone. I’m not gonna get offended by someone I don’t even know. Nor I’ll get hurt. In any case you’ll have to deal with that kind of people even in real life. That’s how the world is made, we liking it or not
But I do understand that others can be more sensitive, and that’s why I try to participate and see if what I see and my opinions can help to improve the situation for those other guys.
But it’s also my opinion that the sensitives will never develop the instruments they need to face what they will have to deal with if overprotected (and, drastic opinion, maybe the Internet, where you don’t really risk anything “real”, could be a good gym)
If you ask me…all this discussion about misbehaving or threads getting closed because they derailed is exaggerated. If for some days there will be some guys in a thread continuously saying “I am right”, “you are wrong”…let them do it…who cares. It will spontaneously go back to the important things. If the thread is useful (like 20 pages of useful feedback and then 2-3 pages of confrontations)…once again: who cares. What matters is the usefulness of the thread. Closing it is very wrong, imo. Drastic opinion number 2: even if someone says he hates somebody else…you can’t accept the “I love you” but not the “I hate you”
And also about the “off topic” that seems so important to forum people… It’s a discussion…who cares if it changes in time? Isn’t that normal? Doesn’t that happens every time also in our “normal” life discussions?
To sum up: my freedom is your freedom. I am free to be a very critic guy but always polite and never name calling anyone (maybe sarcastic…maybe even a little bit too much sarcastic 😂), because this is how I am; you are free to be impolite or arrogant, if this is what you are. We both will have to deal with the consequences of who we are, but neither me nor you have the right to tell the other how he should behave. To tell you “I don’t like how you are acting”? Of course! But not “don’t act like that”.
Can we work to improve things? Of course. Does it mean that what is happening is wrong? Not in my opinion. It’s life
Cancel culture is frankly something I really can’t stand. If you are a racist, PLEASE say racist things. At least I’ll know to whom I will never speak to 😏
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Every forum is a private entity with the rules set by the owners of said forum. This is not an ancient Greek Agora, where everyone could shout whatever they wanted. This simple truth is elusive to so many people…
I’ve been in music business for more than 20 years, I have very thick skin and I’m not easily offended. I simply don’t like rude, insensitive and intolerant people. I was raised to be kind to others, perhaps that’s why I react when someone behaves in the opposite way.
For example at Vi-Control forum, one can even swear if one is so inclined. But try to break their rules and be rude to others and they will perma-ban you in an instant. I was passively registered there for at least half a year before I dared to post anything :)
But thanks to those strict rules, for example, one can have a very polarised PC vs Mac (or about DAWs, or whatever) discussion there, which spans several pages and does not descend into rudeness and ad hominem attacks, unlike here.
So rules, my dear friends, are important;)
@Sunborn - I wasn’t offended and I have not taken your post personally. There was a smiley there at the end of my post, which you might have missed ;)
I think you are a victim of your eloquence and literacy, to be honest.
I’m not a native English speaker, although I’ve been living in the UK for 18 years now. I think my English is pretty good, but still, out of my own experience, the shorter I post and more on subject, the better.
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I’m a lucky guy in being the type that doesn’t matter too much if someone misbehaves. If you want to call me by names, do it. If you are arrogant, be it.
So says @LostInFoundation
OK. I hear you. So you are advocating for the Wild West kind of community. And I vehemently disagree.
But it is not about you being right or me being right and this is not the Wild West. It is about adherence to the RULES.
Again, I fully support @Sunborn's suggestion of a formal agreement to terms and conditions procedure for new members. So no one can later claim ignorance when they break the rules.
The rules are there and they are useless unless followed and even more useless when they are not enforced.
And when they are not enforced, things get out of hand much more frequently.
So to summarize, I am absolutely NOT advocating for running the forum like a police state. But I do value a degree of decorum, reasonably free of useless and unnecessarily aggressive and/or rude posts. Especially the kind that go back and forth endlessly.
And if I am not mistaken, it is only curbing that type of behavior that is the focus of this discussion.
And no, I don't think this issue is greatly overexaggerated as you say.
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Yes, what I expressed was merely my opinion (the one of, as I said, a lucky guy that doesn’t get offended easily. Disgusted eventually, but not offended).
It was just to show another point of view (of which in my opinion, we never have enough).
Of course you are right, and never I would like the forum to be ruled following the fact that I prioritize, over everything else, freedom of speech. Exactly because we have different people, and different sensitivity.
Rules are important. Freedom is important. But over all, using the brain is important
👍🏼
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I said it is overexagerrated because what I saw in the closed threads were some hot head going back and forth with “I’m right, you’re wrong”. Maybe not being the Lords of Politeness, but I didn’t see someone REALLY offending the other.
Maybe I should have said the closure was overexagerrated. Which between was exactly what you said in the OP to start the discussion
But has we said, different heads, different way to see things. Maybe you changed your mind and what you saw for you was already enough. Perfectly understandable.
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You see, in the last comments through mutual explanations, we have started to have more understanding and tolerance towards each other and so we will slowly come to a mutual understanding, even if we don't agree on everything. That is why I said in my first or second comment that it is always good to go deeper and analyze instead of limiting our expression to standard comments. In this way, things begin to normalize in a much more natural way than through rules.
Of course the rules are absolutely necessary. In fact, it may seem paradoxical to some, but I am in favor of strict rules. But they should also have a logic, i.e. they should not be generalized and at the same time they should be flexible enough to be accepted and understood by the widest possible range of users.
Freedom of expression should be respected but at the same time extremes in speech and behavior should be avoided. But to achieve that, all of us will have to take a step back in what we think of as freedom of expression, until we find the exact point of convergence between all points of view, so to satisfy both the one who has a less "proper" way of expression and the one who has a more conservative approach.
It's a hard job to do, but it's worth it! :-)
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Of course the rules are absolutely necessary. In fact, it may seem paradoxical to some, but I am in favor of strict rules. But they should also have a logic, i.e. they should not be generalized and at the same time they should be flexible enough to be accepted and understood by the widest possible range of users.
Above quote effectively points out just how difficult being a Moderator truly is. They are asked to pigeonhole vast differences in expressive styles into a fixed set of rules that are supposed to apply to all users equally and fairly. Not an enviable task to say the least.
The best form of moderation is self-moderation. I think most of us know when we are triggered/agitated by others which is a good time to hold back on what are often emotionally charged responses which often simply add fuel to an already smoldering fire.
And the moderators should really only be looked upon to moderate the few who just cannot help themselves.
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Full agree with how challenging it can be to have to moderate vastly different tone/expression/style and the challenge our mods raised was exactly how to have a set of rules that is easily applicable regardless of these circumstances.
Self-moderation is obviously how everyone should think about the place as it prevents discussion to spiral out of control. With that said, it's also clear that we should review our code of conduct, find a way so that everyone gets to read it (although people don't really read these things if its a box to tick a registration, just like T&Cs) and make it clear as to what happen when you do x or y. We also re-work our warning system so maybe there is a bit more nuance and explanation.
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I think that you need to do exactly what you are doing and have been doing , which is intelligently analyze all the available 'data' (which includes the input from forum participants) and not just let the most 'loud' dominate the discussions. Of course , and this is important also , then there is often a reason as to why people is 'loud' which rightfully ought to be both registered and recorded, but my guess is that those reasons are already both being registered and recorded.
As for the discussion about who to 'listen' to and 'care for'/'cater to' in general then, yes, I also understand why some 'power users' wants to be heard but I am not fully convinced that these users should get that much more 'separate' attention. Again, it is important to address the needs of the 'power users' and the professionals but I think that that is best done in product development and by making sure that stuff actually works and is also easy and problem free to take into first use and to 'install'. Which just brings us back to the more general , because products ought to be like that for all users !
With respect to the intelligently analyzing all the available 'data' (which includes the input from forum participants) then of course part of that is to constantly strive to better at analyzing. And all such things relies on cognitive processes so really then the best way to improve the ability to analyze data would be to improve the cognitive powers of those interpreting data or of those making the software doing the interpretation if any is used to interpret the 'raw data' !
IMO then you Matt_NI are doing a rather good job at 'standing your ground' and explain, I would just like to state it more plainly that you, just like Matthew_NI are doing with respect to all design decisions, are operating within the boundaries of 'the art of the possible' (especially with respect to resources) which is sort of implied in all of these discussions but I think only rarely stated in the plain !
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I think the only way you get people to read T&Cs is if they're short (like a couple of lines) and very clear. Something like "Be nice, don't be a jerk, keep your politics and religion at home, keep it G-rated and don't post anything you wouldn't want your granny to read." Or a more corporate version of that anyway!
-- Mike
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I love this, the simple the better.
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Yes I feel we need both. The express version to be ticked off when you sign-up but also a more detailed version so that everybody understands where the line is in specific cases / information about how moderation work. We'll make these edits ASAP alongside other bits we discussed in this thread.
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I think forum culture has to improve in general. Not a problem with moderation, rather a problem on the user side. People should treat each other like they do when they face each other in the real world. That won't happen, but, you can at least make a point by trying to do so yourself.
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I agree.
And btw, I saw another discussion or a question about some MIDI Files, a day ago I think...and then when I clicked on the message that a newcomer would send, everything was seen.
But when a moderator sends a message, sometimes...the whole discussion would be deleted.
Maybe I thought that someone who asked a question was rude to people or something, so I ignored that.
But when I was just reading normal comments from a certain forum or a discussion where there were no insults or heated arguments, everything was fine.
Then everything changed when the Moderators attacked.
Sorry, I had to make a reference...these are funny in a way.
But again, when I entered the same question but by clicking on a moderator that 'commented' on that forum, the whole discussion was deleted, or in this case, sent to the dreaded Shadow Realm. (Another reference.)
I was concerned to why these things were happening to a totally normal questions, and still am to this day.
The heck is happening here?
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