Why is KK and K7 w/S61MK3 persistently crashing standalone and in three DAWs?

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  • Maciej Repetowski
    Maciej Repetowski Member Posts: 442 Guru
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    “Just switch to Windows” - I’ll remind that to PC guys next time they brick their controllers during firmware update 🤣🤣🤣

    Absolutely no problems on Windows platform, not at all.

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 1,085 Guru
    edited March 6
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    @Matt_W

    While I get your frustration - an even more unfair comment is blaming NI for this.

    This is a Apple constructed mess and as such - you may want to consider asking them why it is such a pain for any developers to navigate the frustration they unleash every September.

    It was your choice to upgrade and unfortunately - your choice to navigate now.

    If you do not like the Windows idea (and I can see why) then rollback to Ventura and forget this happened.

    Hoping you find a solution.

    VP

  • Sensorian
    Sensorian Member Posts: 3 Newcomer
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    I have the S88 MK3 working with Sonoma (as my machine is a new MacBook) and Logic. I can’t use Kontakt as that crashes Logic, as is well documented elsewhere.

    But I can use Komplete Kontrol whilst we await the full Sonoma compatibility update .

    its not perfect but it certainly doesn’t get in the way of creativity.

  • Matt_W
    Matt_W Member Posts: 31 Member
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    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/138485#Comment_138485

    When I upgraded to Sonoma there was no warning about this issue. Furthermore, the NI Product Page clearly states as of 6th March 2024 that S49n mk3 is compatible with Mac OS Venture and above - "and above" in anyone's language means that it's compatible with Sonoma, which it's clearly not.

    I'm not keen to repeat myself, but I'm not blaming NI (check out other posts by other people and you'll definitely see harsher comments than mine). I get the whole operating system / app developer ecosystem thing.

    Once more, I was posting an update to make the point known that as of 6 March with the KK 3.2.0 upgrade the problem still exists.

    For NI staff, have you considered that besides the Sonoma OS, the other variable in this is the actual keyboard itself? Kontakt doesn't crash Logic when using another keyboard on Sonoma.

    And for the record, all my interactions with NI support have been very understanding, professional and cordial.

    Feel free to respond of you're keen to get the last word in or if you just want to critisise mac users. I was using Windows v 2.0 and later back in the 90s, and learnt my computer skills on corporate UNIX systems, so I'm no stranger to technology :)


    Regards

    Matt

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 1,085 Guru
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    @Matt_W

    "When I upgraded to Sonoma there was no warning about this issue"

    Not disagreeing with you here. There will never be a warning about an OS that does not work from NI.

    Regarding Sonoma - I also hear you on the "Ventura and higher thing" - again poorly done/phrased etc from NI and I can see where the hassle creeps in. But this is the only page that matters when it comes to Sonoma:

    macOS 14 Sonoma Compatibility Statement – Native Instruments (native-instruments.com)

    If the products in question are not on here - well you know the rest...

    And yes - it could very well be the keyboard as well. The Mark III series is still very new and simply cannot be bulletproof after just 6 months.

    Cheers

    VP

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 915 mod
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    Neither Kontakt or Kontrol S MK3 have a major, discrete issue on Sonoma.

    The issue is when they're used together, and a crash happens.

    Responsibility for the issue and fix is on the Apple side.

    You are asking why, since on the surface it appears obvious it's a Kontakt or Kontrol bug.

    Underneath the user interface and experience of any product are the building blocks.

    Building blocks are various libraries of code, various frameworks, and so on. Within the product, but also within the environment it interfaces with (such as macOS).

    Think of it like a traffic junction. If things are well, traffic flows. But many things in that balance could go wrong and cause an accident, or impede traffic, with varying levels of severity.

    It could affect you, but that doesn't mean it is you.

  • Matt_W
    Matt_W Member Posts: 31 Member
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    One rotten apple spoils the barrel! :-)

  • Plight
    Plight Member Posts: 11 Member
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    Couple of things. First, KK/Kontakt has been stable for me in Ableton 11 now with extensive use. I haven't been using Cubase, but assume that's a separate issue to the Logic one which may no longer exist. I wanted to post that for others who may be looking to upgrade and have these DAWs.

    I noticed Matthew posted a macOS Sonoma support is the top priority on the Kontrol roadmap a fortnight ago and I suspect we'll see movement before too long. I noticed KK had Sonoma support added in the most recent update.

    I contacted Apple support to ask about resolution timeframes for this issue and I'd encourage others to do the same. It never hurts to apply pressure and raise tickets to try and get these matters higher up in the development queue. The more incentives they have to prioritise this for their customers, the better. I didn't get a quick answer as I'm outside the US and called when the devs were all asleep. But will update if I go at it again.

    Plight

  • Matt_W
    Matt_W Member Posts: 31 Member
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    Hi Plight, did you contact Apple via a weblink contact page and if so which one? I’m keen to also push them along. Each time Logic crashes I believe it’s sending a report to them (I get the message show up with crash details).

    The two things that I think are causing the issue (in my case) are the interaction with Logic and my S49n Mk3 (in my experiments):

    1) Standalone Kontakt 7 + S49n Mk3 = OK

    2) Standalone Kontakt 7 + other controller = OK

    3) Kontakt 7 as plugin in Logic + other controller = OK

    4) Kontakt 7 as plugin in Logic + S49n Mk3 = CRASH

    5) Komplete Kontrol as plugin with Kontakt in Logic + S49n Mk3 = OK (but a clunky user experience).


    Not sure if the above scenarios help the NI team. I’m happy to do a support call and walkthrough with NI if that helps.


    Regards

    Matt

  • Plight
    Plight Member Posts: 11 Member
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    Hi Matt

    Yes, I logged in with my Apple ID and went to https://getsupport.apple.com/topics -> Mac -> Logic Pro.

    What you're describing sounds consistent with my experience. Based on prior correspondence, I think NI have pinned the cause of this down.

    Cheers

    Henry

  • Matt_W
    Matt_W Member Posts: 31 Member
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    Cool, I will also log to Apple, and understand that NI are working on this with Apple.


    Thanks

    Matt

  • Matt_W
    Matt_W Member Posts: 31 Member
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    I just called Apple Support, they put me through to their Logic X team, and they said the issue is more likely to do with the 3rd party developer (ie Native Instruments) integrating with Sonoma, and if the 3rd party developer has logged the issue with Apple Support development team, then the Apple developers would be working on it.

    I'm going to wait until NI advise us with confidence which versions of Kontakt, Komplete Kontrol, keyboard s49n Mk3 firmware, Logic Pro X AND Apple Sonoma are ALL working together nicely before I upgrade anything... I cannot revert back to Sonoma without wasting a lot of time or effort unfortunately, and don't know if that approach is inviting issues with other software I've updated since Sonoma v14.2.1.

    The best solution I can find is to use a DIFFERENT midi Keyboard, ie NOT an NI Keyboard. Of course Komplete Kontrol still works (which is odd given it's NI software), but I really find it difficult to navigate and use Komplete Kontrol as the interface is not as user friendly (in my experience).

    This is just an update for the forum and any NI support staff here based on my configuration and experience.


    Cheers

    Matt

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