Why is KK and K7 w/S61MK3 persistently crashing standalone and in three DAWs?

Plight

I have an open ticket with logs and while I wait for a response I'm keen to see if anyone has cracked this. I read one post about these crashes in Logic that was marked as answered, but it is not resolved.

I'm a first-time user and unfortunately had Sonoma installed when my S61 MK3 arrived. Kontakt 7/Komplete Kontrol started crashing out of the box in standalone, Ableton, Cubase and Logic, so it's hard for me to isolate what specific upgrade or change is driving this. I am providing detail here in case it helps get to the root cause (i.e. if it's a Sonoma issue) or others have the same problem.

Behaviour: KK crashes in stand-alone mode during use in a way that is difficult to reproduce, typically though not exclusively when switching instruments/presets within instruments. K7 loads, but crashes the whole application immediately in Logic when trying to load certain instruments and crashes the whole application during use for instruments that do load. This affects single instruments and multis and the split of what will and won't load can be inconsistent on re-challenge.

First-load of instruments has a higher success rate in K7 in Cubase 12 and Ableton Live 11 (including those that crash in Logic instantly), however, K7 will crash both applications persistently during use in a way that is difficult to reproduce but often though not exclusively caused by loading a new instrument or changing a preset within a loaded instrument. Previews also do not play for several NKS instruments on S61 when browsing K7 in DAW which may be related. Crash logs show K7 has also crashed AUHostingServiceXPC_arrow and com.apple.audio.InfoHelper on at least one occasion each.

I have not otherwise experienced crashes in any DAWs or other programs except for with K7/KK.

Diagnostic Logging: all crash logs point to similar memory errors: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGSEV), EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGBUS), EXC_BREAKPOINT (SIGTRAP), EXC_CRASH (SIGABRT). Summary of a sample of logs attached with specific references:

Summary of NI Crash Causes.xlsx

Hardware: MacBook Pro M1 Max 64GB (Sonoma 14.1.1 and 14.1.2). Komplete Kontrol MKIII S61 (latest firmware). Samsung T7 (latest firmware + Samsung Magician). Audient ID4 (latest firmware). Full hardware diagnostics on M1/T7 reveal no faults/issues.

Software: Komplete Kontrol 3.0.3, Kontakt 7.7.2, Logic Pro 10.7.9 (trial), Cubase 12.0.6.0 (March 2023 - Silicon), Ableton Live Suite (11.3.13 - Silicon). All software genuine.

Libraries: all saved on external Samsung T7. Komplete Ultimate 14 (all up-to-date in NI), almost all EW libraries, Waves cloud instruments, Output Exhale, handful of Sound Iron libraries. All libraries genuine.

Troubleshooting steps taken to-date: All NI applications/DAWs have full folder access. Versions in stand-alone match DAW versions. I have reinitialised the Kontakt database. I have deleted my user preferences. I have reinstalled Komplete Kontrol and Kontakt 7. I have cleanly re-installed Logic including deleting the Logic cs and other preferences file. I have tried shifting libraries to my internal Mac SSD. I've tried closing almost all other processes and followed all the applicable Mac optimisation steps outlined on this site.

Thanks

Plight

oobe79

The stock, annoying answer to this question continues to be the one above, whereby NI does not support Sonoma. However, that literally helps no one with your dilemma, and you cannot buy a new Mac computer without Sonoma. In fact, you cannot downgrade the Macintosh macOS unless it shipped with a previous macOS. That said, there are many reports of people successfully using NI instruments with Sonoma. I don’t know how many of these people are using both NI software AND NI MK3 hardware, which apparently is something else of an issue altogether.

Prior to purchasing my MK3 61 and KK, I was using a few Kontakt (free player) and NI instruments with my Arturia Keylab Essential MK3 49 midi controller with no problems on both my M1 MacBook Air as well as my Mac Mini M2 Pro, both running Sonoma 14.1. However, when I added my Kontrol MK3 S61 keyboard and KK, everything went to hell. I now have almost everything working correctly, and this is what it took:

1. Make sure the Kontrol MK3 S-series controller is not running solely straight from one of the USB-C Thunderbolt ports on your Mac. Instead, either connect to your Mac through a powered USB-C hub. Alternatively, you could connect it normally but also add a second powered USB-C cable to the second USB-C port on the back of your S61.
2. I downgraded back to macOS Ventura. I didn’t have a Time Machine backup. So I had to do this the hard way. I had wipe my entire hard drive and reinstall Ventura, then every piece of software on my computer, including all NI instruments and software. As I stated above, however, if your MacBook shipped with Sonoma, you will not be able to downgrade the operative system to any previous version.
3. Give your DAW and all NI instruments, NI Hardware Helper, and NI Daemon full disk access on your Mac.

I’m going to wait until NI says their software is compatible with Sonoma before I update again. It would be great if they would provide some guidance on a timeline though, as older macOS versions are more vulnerable to security threats.

Matthew_NI

I would expect Sonoma support for the keyboard to land some time in Q1

Uwe303

Hello,

Mac OS sonoma is officially not supported yet wit almost all native software.

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/360014900358-Compatibility-of-Native-Instruments-Products-on-macOS

oobe79

The stock, annoying answer to this question continues to be the one above, whereby NI does not support Sonoma. However, that literally helps no one with your dilemma, and you cannot buy a new Mac computer without Sonoma. In fact, you cannot downgrade the Macintosh macOS unless it shipped with a previous macOS. That said, there are many reports of people successfully using NI instruments with Sonoma. I don’t know how many of these people are using both NI software AND NI MK3 hardware, which apparently is something else of an issue altogether.

Prior to purchasing my MK3 61 and KK, I was using a few Kontakt (free player) and NI instruments with my Arturia Keylab Essential MK3 49 midi controller with no problems on both my M1 MacBook Air as well as my Mac Mini M2 Pro, both running Sonoma 14.1. However, when I added my Kontrol MK3 S61 keyboard and KK, everything went to hell. I now have almost everything working correctly, and this is what it took:

1. Make sure the Kontrol MK3 S-series controller is not running solely straight from one of the USB-C Thunderbolt ports on your Mac. Instead, either connect to your Mac through a powered USB-C hub. Alternatively, you could connect it normally but also add a second powered USB-C cable to the second USB-C port on the back of your S61.
2. I downgraded back to macOS Ventura. I didn’t have a Time Machine backup. So I had to do this the hard way. I had wipe my entire hard drive and reinstall Ventura, then every piece of software on my computer, including all NI instruments and software. As I stated above, however, if your MacBook shipped with Sonoma, you will not be able to downgrade the operative system to any previous version.
3. Give your DAW and all NI instruments, NI Hardware Helper, and NI Daemon full disk access on your Mac.

I’m going to wait until NI says their software is compatible with Sonoma before I update again. It would be great if they would provide some guidance on a timeline though, as older macOS versions are more vulnerable to security threats.

Plight

@oobe79 thank you so much for taking the time to respond to this and for sharing your experience. The official line I had back from NI support is that this issue is known (KT-8692), but there is no ETA for a fix and no workaround was offered. They didn't comment on a cause. I suppose we can assume some combination issue involving MK3 + Sonoma + Apple Silicon may be going on given there aren't a huge number of reports and your experience with other hardware.

On your advice, I plugged in discrete power to my MKIII. I noted also your point about the NI Hardware Helper - this wasn't showing for me in Privacy and Security as I'd only done a scan of the Applications folder previously. I tracked down NIHardwareAgent, NIHardwareConnectionService and NIHostIntegrationAgent and gave these Full Disk Access access (/Library/Application Support/Native Instruments/Hardware if anyone else is looking for these).

Since making these changes, I can now load instruments in Kontakt 7 in Logic that previously would always crash on first-load. Kontakt crashed when I tried to load a multi, but it gave me the opportunity to save or recover my project, which means this is potentially workable state of affairs until an update. Continued use will elucidate... I'll report back.

If things are still unworkable, I do have the option of a full roll-back as you had to go through. A lesson learned for me as a new Mac user!

Thanks again,

Plight

Matthew_NI

I would expect Sonoma support for the keyboard to land some time in Q1

xgman1

Only 6 months late. You can do better! Come on..

Matthew_NI

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/114058#Comment_114058

We all want things yesterday. Perhaps this helps shed some light on why not everything can, or should, be so soon as you'd think or like.

Though a new OS is in beta prior to release, it has often been the case that breaking changes continue right up until the final public version, and that beginning work on fixes for products so highly interdependent prior to this point is often inefficient and wasted effort, as the goalposts can and do shift out from under us.

Only once a final public version, with no further changes, of an OS has arrived, does it make sense to begin the the effort to migrate to official support for that OS.

In this case, Sonoma released on September 26th. Q1 support would put us anywhere from 4 to 6 months well timed after the launch. In any case, we began our efforts, which are ongoing, and as mentioned, expected to land in Q1. The effort is twofold.

Firstly, it's not just our own software (Komplete Kontrol 3) at play here. As you know, KK3 is itself a host, so we also have to consider the impact of any OS level changes on thousands of plug-ins that could be hosted in KK. This leads to an infinite number of variables, and takes time to sensibly and methodically approach as wide a number of scenarios as possible. Sometimes, we may identify a problem, but even if it affects us as a host, the fix is specific to that plug-in manufacturer's implementation rather than being anything we can fix. And so the feedback loop continues as we talk to that partner and help them report and diagnose on their end.

Secondly, when adding official support, oftentimes we find issues have been introduced by a new OS. Sometimes, as is the case now, those issues are inadvertent and present in the OS itself, and therefore must be reported to the manufacturer of that OS, in order that they may fix them so that those fixes are not passed on to our users after we claim official support.

If you have any specific advise on how to do this better, please let us know! Or, better yet, join us: https://www.native-instruments.com/en/careers/

Plight

Thanks for the update on timeframe @Matthew_NI, I appreciate it and understand these issues are complex.

While Logic is fairly unusable with my current setup even after attempting a few measures (despite some early optimism), K7/KK MK3 combo in Cubase and Ableton is more stable.

I’m happy to share details of issues I’ve encountered if it helps the process, otherwise will keep a close eye on developments with these issues and Q1 updates.

Thanks

Plight

Matt_W

Hi all, I’m new here and just want to mention that I’m facing the same issue.

I’ve read through this thread and others and tried most of the solutions (I have not rolled back my OS).

My gear/specs:

Kontakt S49N Mk3, firmware 1.5.5 (R14)

Native Access v3.8.0

Kontakt 7 v7.7.3

Logic Pro X v10.8.1

MacBook Pro 16 inch, 2023

Chip: Apple M2 Max

Memory: 96 GB

MacOS: Sonoma 14.2.1

Kontakt 7 crashes in Logic Pro X whenever I have my Kontakt S49N Mk3 connected. I connect from the USB port (the round-ish one, not the power one) on the back of my S49N directly into a USB-C port on my MacBook (I don’t go via a hub nor an interface).

If I don’t connect my S49N and trigger instruments in Kontakt in Logic with the virtual keyboard using my mouse, then is no problem.

If I connect a different MIDI keyboard (for example, an iRig Keys 2, then there is no problem.

This is what leads me to believe it is related to the Kontakt S49N Mk3 MIDI Keyboard somehow.

Hope this helps, and looking forward to a solution to this. 

Regards

Matt

johnhlz

"We all want things yesterday. Perhaps this helps shed some light on why not everything can, or should, be so soon as you'd think or like."

NI should sell products that work and function as advertised and have support when issues occur.

I don't even have a mac but was looking into it to see if I might need newer software than my windows computer to run KK3 but its good to see that me buying a better computer wouldn't have been the solve either. Still trying to figure out when I can start using my product as advertised.

Matt_W

Hi, I just want to update that this problem with the combination of Kontakt, Kontrol s49n and Logic Pro X still persists, as of 6 March 2024.

It's frustrating and I really feel like returning this keyboard and getting a full refund (incl shipping costs back to NI). It basically hasn't worked since upgrading to Sonoma.

For anyone who may be reading this post, here are my software versions if it helps in troubleshooting. I'd even be willing to have a zoom call with someone from NI to show them (I've already sent a video to support).

Here's my specs as of 6 March 2024 below. The reason I write this is because a new Komplete Kontrol update came out which mentioned a bunch of bug fixes including crashing in logic, so I eagerly updated but was sadly disappointed.

Logic v10.8.1

Kontakt 7 v7.8

Kontrol S49n Mk33

Komplete Kontrol v3.2.0

Sonoma 14.2.1

Regards

Matt

Matt_W

This is false advertising on the NI product page for Kontrol S49N.

This is NOT supported on "higher" than Ventura Mac OS. Buyer beware.

DunedinDragon

Just to set the record straight, I'm running all of the most recent versions of KK and K7 with my S88MK3 and it's been working perfectly from the day I got it. But then I'm using Windows 10 and the current version of Ableton Live 11. Maybe instead of blaming NI for the problems you're experiencing you should be blaming the vendor that provides your OS and DAW as they should be doing better testing, not NI. NI is just as much a victim of those vendors as you are.

Matt_W

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/138411#Comment_138411

I'm not blaming NI if you read my post, I'm providing an update on the situation with my current setup and the new Komplete Kontrol version that I updated today (note that yesterday on another thread NI said an update was dropping in 24 hours), so it looks like that update didn't fix this particular issue.

I'm also expressing my frustration which is not unfair given I was one of the first to buy the S49n Mk 3 and it hasn't been smooth since. And the buyer should beware!

I'm not running Windows 10 nor Ableton Live, so your comment is kind of irrelevant to this thread.

Regards

Matt

Vocalpoint

@Matt_W

"I'm also expressing my frustration which is not unfair given I was one of the first to buy the S49n Mk 3 and it hasn't been smooth since. And the buyer should beware!"

Yes - the buyer should "Beware". But the buyer is also responsible for doing their homework.

A quick look around this forum for about 5-10 minutes - like months ago - would have told you to stay far away from anything to do with Sonoma.

The official NI Somoma Compatibility page should be enough to convince anyone to stay away from Sonoma:

macOS 14 Sonoma Compatibility Statement – Native Instruments (native-instruments.com)

But as usual - a typical Apple owner seems unaware of what "homework" or "due-diligence" actually mean and seem to think that just because Apple releases something - they should install it right away while assuming every plugin vendor has already delivered full compatibility.

Sonoma has been a huge challenge for ALL plugin vendors (not just NI).

If you want to get work done or do not have the patience to wait out NI (and a whole bunch of the rest of the plugin vendor world) while they try to recode everything - just to make Apple happy - maybe consider a rollback to Ventura.

Or switch to Windows - as there are no issues here with anything NI.

VP

Matt_W

”Typical Apple owner” not a fair comment nor very helpful or constructive comments chaps.

A few NI shills chiming in? I can understand your frustration with so many customer complaints. I share your frustration!

Looking forward to a fix from NI soon. I’ve suggested to NI support and here that the issue only occurs when using the S49n Mk3 keyboard in above mentioned configuration - perhaps it’s the S49n Mk3 firmware???

This is a thread about issues with NI products and compatability. Hopefully the update I provided earlier today on this thread can make NI aware that the issue still persists after the recent upgrade of Komplete Kontrol 3.2.0.

Yeah, I regret updating to Somana, no doubt!

Just telling folks to switch or upgrade their whole systems to Windows is a rather pointless suggestion or fix to this issue

Regards

Matt