Komplete Kontrol S series MK1 keyboards End Of Life
Comments
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Probably an approach thing
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Thanks for the article link. Some interesting stuff to glean.
One divergence from a very fundamental point Chris made is the desire for an immersive experience on the device,... I do not want this myself.
I much prefer the large display, powerful CPU, and trackpad selection of my computer. The on-device display/buttons/knobs of the S-MK3 will never ever compete with this far more capable environment only a few degrees higher in my field of vision.
Chris mentioned "laptop face" in the article. To me that's just another way of describing someone in the creative zone.
I believe in the "Ask Me Anything" thread about the S-MK3, a NI rep (Chris I think) said the new keyboards were designed primarily as being used with a DAW in a studio setting... de-emphasizing the thought of using them as live performance keyboards. This is seems obvious. And as such, why then also design with this goal of an on-device immersive experience?
It would have been better to think of making the experience of keyboard + computer display more "immersive" instead. A deep-think on how to best relate the "head-up" GUI to a more instinctive movement to the controls on the keyboard.
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Hi @LostInFoundation can you elaborate on those mixed messages? ... we are constantly looking for ways to improve our communication with our users.
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"We are constantly looking for ways to improve our communication with our users"
Wow - most of this goes - without saying - but here goes anyway...
If you guys are really looking to improve your comms - you could have started by giving a 6-month heads up to ALL MK1 keyboard users when NI decided that it was no longer feasible for them to move to the new KK3.
OR
Warn ALL users of Kontakt 6 that if they even so much as came near Native Access in September 2023 and inadvertently updated one of their key Kontakt libraries (because again - Native Access always thinks it's a great idea) they will instantly be greeted with a message saying that their library is now "too old" to be used ever again (unless they buy Kontakt 7) OR scour these forums or NI support to somehow find an original installer that will make them whole again.
OR
Tell the user base (unless they just bought a MKIII S-Series keyboard) to avoid KK3 until Summer 2024 due to its lack of basically anything that made KK 2.9.6 usable and the critical fact that since the comms were so bad in the first place - if any MK1 user suddenly installs KK3 (due to Native Access broadcasting it's availability like it is a "must install") has just killed their hardware connectivity since KK3 is not compatible.
There are so many things that NI has done wrong - comms wise - in the last 4-6 weeks - it is almost hard to fathom - to be honest.
VP
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Wow…you even turned Vocalpoint by our side…well…THAT is an accomplishment!
(@Vocalpoint I’m just joking… I know you didn’t disagree with everything we said but you were just confuting some points, but…pass me the exaggeration…the twisting in what you wrote against other users before and what you write now is still noticeable 😉)
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Ok @Chris_NI … I appreciate the willingness to ear what we have to say.
Give me some time and I will elaborate (I want to write things down in a proper way that can be useful, because I learned that sometimes how I write things can sound as a direct accusation, and I’ll try to avoid it this time 😉)
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remind me the speed at wich i've lost my family this year ....from one day to next 😞
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Old dog - new tricks 😎
VP
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My hope for a "more immersive" experience of the combination of new S-MK3 + computer rig is not a necessarily a missed opportunity. It is still possible to achieve to a large degree.
What it would require is a rethink of the desktop GUI's of KK3 & Kontakt 7 being the primary concern for the fundamental aspects of user experience...Do not compromise the evolution of the desktop environment for the sake of an external keyboard.
This can still be done with the forward path of S-MK3.
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@Chris_NI here it is. I don’t even know how this is written (adding things here and there usually doesn’t help readability), but I hope it is at least understandable:
Instead of following the order of the article, let’s start by what to me sounded…well…let’s say quite strange
Integration between NI products (specially Maschine): “The interesting part of our strategy is we were starting to see the synergy between the two product lines”. That’s why you decided with the new MK3 to abandon any form of integration??? And put the devices that has it (MK1 models) EOL? There’s a whole chapter of the interview about that synergy…allow me to find it at least strange, exactly now that you are abandoning that integration. You say “Back then, we were two different divisions but the two products shared a lot of architecture. They shared a lot of modules, and they were also released at the same time with a lot of the same hardware components from a tech stack perspective; same displays, and methods of doing things.”. Well…seen the decision to ignore Maschine with the new MK3, maybe it was better “back then”…
“we’re seeing ways that we can leverage the benefits across the portfolio of products.” Well…happy you’re seeing this, because what you are communicating to users with “Maschine isn’t supported at all. Many other DAWs are (even if at the moment many issues are raising also on these), but our own product, Maschine, we thought it would be better to not put efforts in it” is exactly the opposite. And just smells like something I fear a lot: you DO have a project (that as usual you keep secret) for Maschine. And the project is: EOL.
“we didn’t feel like users were getting an immersive experience. They didn’t feel like they were controlling a real instrument.”: the opposite is the main thing I usually hear from users. That they love the products we already have because you can use them without thinking too much about the computer in comparison to other devices from other brands (well…exception made for nightjar ☺️). Now…every improvement is more than welcome…but…can I ask how the introduction of NKS2 will radically improve what we already have? To me, having more/different parameters, the “bigger display” (but still used in the same way, aka a big image to please the eyes but always the same few valuable infos over the knobs), or even the (future, because it’s not there yet) implementation of the Play Assistant on board (still to discover how much it will be freely usable, since we don’t have any info if the keyboard will continue to be usable in midi mode only if plugged to a computer as it is now…the only thing we know is that midi ports can still be used only with a choice: usb OR 5pin) doesn’t sound like that big step forward. It is surely a step, but I find difficult to see that “more authentic experience of playing an instrument”. Specially the last point about Play Assistant on board: I don’t want to sound like I don’t like it…but for the “authentic experience”…what does it change if it is managed by the computer or the keyboard? With my (EOLed) S MK1, I push a button on the keyboard and it works…it doesn’t matter to me who is doing the job. Unless now you will answer me that the new MK3 can be plugged directly to an hardware synth and the scales, chords, arpeggiator will work without any computer involved. And about “If you were running ten instances of Kontakt you needed ten instances of Komplete Kontrol and that’s heavy on the CPU”, what’s the difference now? You can run ten instances of Kontakt without KK…but they still are 10 instances…they are heavy on CPU anyway.
Another point which get repeated over and over in the article is about how much those new devices “upgrade was based on feedback from a wide range of users”. Well…that’s not my experience nor the common perception users have about NI. Quite the opposite: what the majority of users think is “NI never listen to users feedback and they don’t mind about requests”. Maybe I’m wrong and lately you’re acting differently, as you and others from NI are finally doing here on the forum, by at least interacting and coming to explain (alas afterwards) your decisions. I would be happy of that, but…again…this is not my experience with NI after 20 years together. Nor it’s what it looks to me even now. And even with those new releases (MK3, KK3,…). What it looks to me is that you released new things with some new features (not too many and too late, they should have come before and for the products you already sold us. Do you want a stupid example? Looper in Guitar Rig. You removed it from GR 6, promising to bring it back. And you did. Unluckily with the new release of GR7. “Pay for it. We made you already pay for GR6 and removing it. Now you have to pay again if you want it, because it’s gonna be in GR7”…). You added some new features, the ones you wanted (probably also these ones requested by some users), but forgot about a thousand more things users are suggesting you for many many years. And, most important, not improving what users bought you, but telling them to buy the new ones and practically retire the ones they already have. I already expressed this to other NI people: it’s not in NI DNA to think to improve what they made (even by asking a deserved price for the updates and the work behind them). NI politic is “abandon the old, make them buy the new”
All these critiques anyway come from a prospective: the one seeing how products are being released. I’m sure that if things were not rushed and kk3 would have been released PERFECTLY WORKING, without any hiccups (if we want to call CPU spikes, old projects being rendered unusable and libraries not working anymore simply hiccups…), with all their functionalities already present, without the mess all the new libraries updates are causing to users and their already owned softwares/devices, without declaring PERFECTLY WORKING devices EOL…probably the perception of the new functionalities would be more positive.
All this discussing about the NEED for the embedded computer, new tech stacks being SO necessary…to then do what? Rendering a big (not interactive) image on the screen and power the smart play assistant? Well…those things were ALREADY there. The only difference is that before they were handled by a bigger, more capable computer, to which we will be plugged anyway… it sounds to me more the NEED to tell people “we can’t give you the new features with your already existing devices because they don’t have a computer inside”. More a nice pretext to make us think we need to buy a new device than a real improvement. We will see…maybe in future you’ll surprise me with such wonderful features really needing the embedded computer…not at the moment (BTW: the Korg NanoKeys Studio, a 160 bucks plastic device, already has chords, arpeggiator, scales built inside…I guess what very powerful embedded computer it has inside, at this price point…)
As I see it now, the new MK3 is a very beautiful device, probably well built (talking about materials) with a very nice feature in the polyphonic aftertouch. Not more than that. Surely not a device completely changing the cards on the table. And not something justifying the NEED to make all the devices we already have look like obsolete and not still supportable. It’s an opportunistic CHOICE you made, not a necessity.
BTW: all this focus on NKS2…are you sure you made the right choice? Now that MIDI 2.0 could be starting to appear everywhere (and it IS starting, with other brands releasing kb with it)? One of the features of MIDI 2.0 is exactly the ability of letting devices communicate between themselves, for example for assigning parameters. All this work on NKS2 could in a not so long time become, let’s say, at least redundant. Therefore…it could not take long before all the work you did will result in something not that indispensable and all the money spent from users for your new kb will not grant them anything so exclusive anymore. At least you were so wise in putting also MIDI 2 in the keyboard. Which to me speaks a lot…
Maybe putting all your efforts in offering something…more unique…could have been a wiser choice
Nothing wrong in admitting “We wanted to release a new device and sell it”. Trying to find excuses to not support what people already paid for and make everything look like you were “forced” to take those decisions is a little….meh…
I always say this: do you want to convince people in changing what they already have for the new? There’s an easy way to do this: release something EXCEPTIONAL! You won’t need to abandon anything to force them to upgrade: they will WANT it!
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And…re reading it now, I notice I forgot a lot of things…but it’s already a VERY LONG opinion, so let’s leave it like this…I think you get my point anyway.
Thank you for your attention
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“we didn’t feel like users were getting an immersive experience. They didn’t feel like they were controlling a real instrument.”
The above quote that LostInFoundation pulled from Chris in the article is a good hinge point.
Users not feeling like they were controlling a real instrument perhaps is NOT so much related to the location of a display, rather than the relationship they have with of the knobs & screen
I suggest that with an excellent computer display GUI that instinctively relates to on-device knobs can yield an immersive experience very much as if in control of a real instrument.
The "immersive feeling" comes from responsive and instinctive tactile control.. NOT where the display is located.
Isn't that what happens with well-designed computer games? Players feel immersed in the game environment.
Relationship between desktop screen + on-device knobs is what should matter most...
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The other key thing is that the NI gear has to play nice with our other gear - the DAW, other companies software and hardware.
NI doesn't get to dictate to users how they make their music but should rather be assisting it.
You can't make an 'immersive' product that takes control of that for even most users and it's frankly foolish to set that as a design parameter. There's also way too much marketing speak in that interview and very little of hard, technical information. You can tell when someone has a good basis for what they say because they aren't scared to share the data and analysis that backs it. NI never do this and always take a paternalistic, 'trust us, we know what's best for you' approach even though they have chopped and changed with no perceivable focus of decades, except a desire to sell their new 'shiny'.
The failure of NIs product planning is evident in the fact they keep abandoning products pretty much as soon they release them. How a company of this revenue manages to not support their software base adequately speaks only of management failure.
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Conncerning the synergy.....
I have never understood why Maschine & KK world is so distant from Traktor & Co. Maschine SW does not has native export of STEM files for Traktor.... Which is absolutely unbelievaly.... There is no integration of Maschine SW and Traktor. And so on....
And yes, NI should integrate KK Sxx MK1. It should not be that much work...
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My problem is I’m convinced it’s not about “that much work”, but more about “that much users with already what they need and therefore not buying the new one” (true also for MK2: yes, you can use it with KK3 and therefore you can update past 2.9.6, but if all the updates will bring things (NKS2) usable only with MK3, what’s even the point in updating? Only advantage is that at least you’ll get bug fixes with updates, but since they say 2.9.6 is so perfect, the bugs to fix will be new ones they introduced with the new updates…).
That’s valid for the whole “NKS2 only with new MK3” introduction or the embedded CPU. It’s not much about “let’s give them something really innovative and revolutionary”, but more “let’s give them something for which they need to buy the new keyboard”. And it’s clear by the whole situation of all these updates messing up everything we already have.
As I said, they had 2 ways to do that: offer something so fantastic we would not resist or make it so that what we already have is crippled (or even EOL…)
They made their choice…
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