From a blind composer and producer. Thanks for robbing the blind community.

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blindaudiodev
blindaudiodev Member Posts: 5 Member
in Komplete Kontrol

I'm publishing this post to warn ANYONE who is severely visually impaired o blind to STAY AWAY from Native Instruments S series keyboards, maybe even native instruments completely.

Why?

I started with NI back in 2016 with one of the early MK1 S88 models and the early builds of Komplete Kontrol, then upgraded to an S88 MK2 some time later for a short while. All was OK until Komplete Kontrol started changing and problems surfaced, but in all fairness the problems were already in the early phases with basic issues like screen readers not being able to navigate the app itself (VoiceOver on MacOS) and not being able to access the preferences to set up the interface, audio, midi, etc without sighted help.

Today, new stuio suposed to open, won't open now for a long while to come. New S61 MK3 arrived a week or so back, got it out of the box to register it, back in the box to be ready to get things running. to find something gut wrenchingly sickening to the core, now damaging my work and reputation within accessibility development.

S series 3 products no longer accessible, the system has been killed off, removed and hasn't been any support in well over a year plus.

What is Native Instruments thinking? your software and hardware isn't just in bedrooms, it's in workplaces, schools, educational institutes and you DO THIS!?

now I need to find a way to refund licenses, get the keyboard back to the supplier and find another method, because the A series doesn't fit my needs. Well done NI, you failed a blind community, you poisoned the well and for what?

I'm done, I trusted you implicitly, I discussed matters with staff, no one told me what was going on when I discussed the requirements, no one said there's a problem with the S series MK3 units and accessibility, yet this little page appears

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/specials/ni-accessibility-helper/

No changes, no new software, nothing, so what to do eh? Well done. I've been fighting to rescue a recording studio after e member of family died and the closure of that studio, I place my absolute trust in you and you do this to a worldwide community of blind musicians who depend on you.

SHAME ON YOU!

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Comments

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,850 mod

    Apologies for any misunderstanding here.

    Nothing has been killed off.

    In actuality, the NI Accessibility Helper is being massively upgraded at the moment, in order to add full support for Kontrol S MK3.

    This will be the most advanced and capable Accessibility implementation we've ever built, which is partly why it's taken some time.

    It is currently in beta testing. If you'd like to be included to test the early version(s) before it ships to the public, please let @Chris_NI know.

  • blindaudiodev
    blindaudiodev Member Posts: 5 Member

    It's taken well over 1-1/2 years to do this? you've had equipment for sale, you've kept marketing material up advertising accessible products, your youtube videos advertising accessibility, we're supposed to trust you? I've just spoken to my dealer regarding a refund on the s61mk3 and 'it's being dealt with.

    this is my career, a business I threw everything in to for years, now I find a company I've trusted in, promoted, recommended to people, I'm not the only one who knows this to be the case. yeah sure, if you want me to test this, great, but to be honest, I'll be requesting refunds for recent purchases on grounds of fitness of accessibility.

    a helper app, taking further resources, which has to be piggy backed on boot before hardware connection, yeah, I know about maschine mk3 and it's software.

    Sorry, I'm done. I can never trust NI again, why should I?

  • blindaudiodev
    blindaudiodev Member Posts: 5 Member

    I'm sorry, Please forgive me, my reactions and comments were out of order for the most part. Please understand that I've been involved with NI since 2016 not long after the first batch of s series mk1's came out and komplete kontrol rolled out, I owned my own studio which was not only a studio but an R&D environment. That studio was everything I worked for. after losing my dad and shutting it all down to save our home or be homeless due to a legal matter over his death, I tried to pick myself back up. I came back to NI to set up a basic rig, so had a MK2 unit and software running OK but some issues started cropping up, but the worst of it was that the vital issues of komplete kontrol as an app weren't fixed. OK, fair enough, now you have a better version of komplete kontrol which VoiceOver attempts to support, but it's done wrong and it's guys like me who deal with this who see it first hand. I'm full blown blind so this setup means a lot. The contact I've had internally with NI customer end, someone would have known this issue and let me know before I started getting things going, that didn't happen, there was nothing alerting me in any searches to this issue, even your own youtube content talking about accessibility. now bear in mind that the mk3 layout changed but until someone makes it clear what changes there are and active descriptions of button layouts, I'm trusting in you as the developers, creators to get it right.

    Why remove functions we need when it's a product marketed and opened to the public for retail and do this? I'm sorry to say what's been said, but you have to understand where I've come from and today's horror, losing money I can't afford to lose on hardware that's not working based on a marketing error.

    lew

  • BIF
    BIF Member Posts: 1,223 Guru

    I'm not going to read all that…not without being broken down into paragraphs.

    But I do empathize with you and your situation. I'm not blind, but I still feel for you. I get your frustration. The Komplete Kontrol V3 implementation was definitely mishandled in more ways than one. And after that, it was not corrected in a timely manner due to other plans "in the backlog".

    Many of us are indeed frustrated, and yes, you are completely justified to be upset at the nearly 2 years since the mess all began.

    But, again as a fellow user, I'm going to suggest that at some point in the next 6 months or so, as @Matthew_NI says, the accessibility features of Komplete Kontrol will be much better for MK3 users.

    If you need to return your MK3 controller now so you can get your new studio running, I think everybody would understand that. But please don't swear off Native Instruments for all time. I'm confident that Matthew is telling us the truth, and I'm confident that things will improve in the coming quarters.

    One option you MIGHT be able to do, is to return the MK3 now so that you can spend that money on other things in the near-term. Then just plan to check in here in the forums sometime around Christmas or maybe in January/February to see if accessibility has been improved.

    I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you are able to figure out a way forward.

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Member Posts: 3,387 Expert
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/233904#Comment_233904

    That misses the mark somewhat.

    Not always easy to just return something, in some cases I know the keyboard was purchased months prior based on the information at hand which was KK had accessibility for years, only to find out it's not available but is "planned" to be coming and now FF 2 years and it is still not out of Beta. I mean honestly, no other software I have used in my life releases a new updated version and actually removes functionality, you never expect a new version to be less capable than the version it replaces.

    The issue is the fact there was no statement about it at all, no post or sticky on the forum, no feature list that says it is "coming" but there IS 6 years prior where people were happily using the MK2 and talking it up which is what people base their decisions on.

    Even if it was required to rip that feature out so it could be rebuilt, an announcement should have been made because unlike a complete trashing of the GUI which is frustrating and painful to work with, it's not the same as having the GUI removed completely and not being able to use the product at all. Like this chap says, he isn't the bedroom teenager that NI now market at, he is a professional that relies on such features like many do and when professional features are just removed without warning, that is not at all a professional move. It is no wonder people get angry and upset especially knowing all too well it could be years before we see change (as we see right here….).

  • blindaudiodev
    blindaudiodev Member Posts: 5 Member

    Firstly, to those who have responded to this post, I wish to thank you for your understanding, kindness and patience with me. I wish, however to apologise for the wording of my original post.

    My background isn't just as a professional musician, composer, recording engineer, etc. I am an accessibility solutions developer, Music Technologies Accessibility advocate, trainer and troubleshooter. I qualified as an Apple Master Technician whilst at college over 20 years ago because I was dealing with accessibility challenges as an apple user even then. I've been fully blind for over 25-1/2 years and see nothing but as I would describe it as pure black, I don't have the advantage of most registered blind people with light response or colour / shape recognition, etc, so technologies like VoiceOver for the Mac and iphone, etc are vital to me.

    I agree that I should at least give Native Instruments some benefit of the doubt, but at the same time, I have made arrangements for the s61 MK3 to be returned for a full refund.

    It is a very sad set of circumstances when a developer makes a business strategy move, that affects the quality of lives of those who have always been toold that a particular manufacturer provides such accessibility adaptations, to then remove them for nearly 2 years. I only found out last night what buttons were missing because of poor descriptive documentation and poor marketing reference (with lack of accessible descriptions I might add), that it's critically evident something is wrong.

    I've received critically alarming feedback from parties who wish to remain anonymous regarding the state of accessibility development and bugs reported, found, etc, as well as my own observations. I am very concerned indeed. Mind you, this isn't the first case of a manufacturer committing these actions, won't be the last, but if people like myself step forward and raise the alarm and place companies in a position where they must fix the problems, then so be it.

    I have tried very hard to rebuild a relationship with Native Instruments, a relationship based on trust, mutual respect and a promise to change things for the better. I now find that relationship is like time and grains of sand, slipping away. I lost count of the times when working with the beta team for Komplete Kontrol, etc where I filed reports for incompatibility with screen readers, which were ignored and I was told (still have it on file) that developers weren't interested in fixing these issues yet, instead they were adding new features. So, really at the end of the day, rather than listening to users who are experienced and more qualified and taking on what needs fixing, we were ignored and turned away.

    I'll be posting an article today which goes over some elements of interest for people to read, don't worry, nothing sensitive, it's an education in user interface design process and evaluation. When you're me, you see things with a different perspective and find solutions in the problems presented, you look for positive ways in crisis points, that's what I do. If a company isn't interested in looking at the solution to a problem, then that's their own issue.

    What I fail to understand as a software engineer / developer is this… Why develop external software helper apps which then require login privileges, etc to fix a problem with a user interface? The Maschine accessibility helper app is such an example of WHAT? Rather than examine the structure and internal behaviour of the GUI to a production worksttion app, you create an external tool to give an accessibility layer. OK, right, it's providing the host device a spoken layer for physical control, but here's the fatal flaw… It's this… Preferences Window completely inaccessible to screen readers. Why is this a fatal flaw? how can a blind person change settings for hardware and software requirements to make changes without sighted help? This applies to Kontakt 8, Komplete Kontrol 3.5 and Guitar Rig 7.

    These faults have existed since 2016 and plenty of people can confirm that.

    So, where are we now? Komplete Kontrol 3.5.0 and Kontakt 8.5.0 do have MINIMAL voiceover support as you'll see in a post coming up soon. The user interface can be made to work, the evidence is there, but no one is going in to the UI layer and examining the chain where accessibility interactions occur, nor what objects, windows and functions have descriptors, missing descriptors, reading order points / flags, etc, not even interaction status indicators. These problems can be fixed if a few techs within NI explore the interface and find the errors, or do users like me have to show this time and time again before it's noticed? this applies to Kontakt 8.5.0, Komplete Kontrol 3.5.0, Guitar Rig 7x.

    Anyway, it's early Sunday morning, I haven't slept because of heat and feeling so upset over a setup I need as my business being compromised so heavily by a company I trusted.

    to JesterMgee, thank you, It's good to have someone who sees this also and I agree that legally speaking, Native Instruments should have published statements at launch of the S series MK3 that accessibility functionality does not exist in this model. I didn't even know that the mixer button was missing due to poor documentation.. The problem still to this day is that a particular youtube video for Native Instruments still markets accessibility features, yet no one's raised the red flag yet. No official announcements, etc. What's wrong? this is wrong.

    anyway I just hope other blind users who are told that this system works, don't fall in to the trap.. Yes I could buy an A series, but it doesn't fit my requirements at all, the keybed isn't to my standard of playing and doesn't have poly aftertouch, so what's the point of downgrading to a controller that won't offer what I need of it?

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