Transient Master volume behaviour

Janiferi

Tl;dr. TM exhibits jarring volume behaviour at extreme settings. Can't figure out why. Screenshots of amplitude history included.

Hi, i asked this a week ago on r/NativeInstruments and could not get a reply so i'm hoping you guys could clarify what i can't seem to understand. This is driving me crazy.

So when using TM at extreme settings, the volume slowly starts to normalize when starting playback. Long pauses between hits are not affecting this in any way, nor is looping, it just resets to some base amplitude when stopping playback. The same behaviour can be seen in stand-alone transient-master, albeit not as strongly. Input volume has no effect, but the limiter on stand-alone version seems to combat this a bit. I guess i could nullify the effect with the comp in the drumkit, but i'd still like to know whether this is normal behaviour or not, and if not, why is this happening.

So, is it a general transient shaper feature? Is there something wrong with my settings? Is Reaper doing something weird "under the hood"? Can anybody even replicate this behaviour? Am i going nuts over something that's should be common knowledge?

Thanks in advance,

Jani

Uwe303

Hello,

this is expected behavior with those "extreme" settings, like with all dynamic processors you set those time constants also in relation to the distance between the notes ,and the length of those too, of course. You can also set a compressor with a very long releaseband short attack, for example, and the second note will be quieter and so on. It's not exactly the same but that comparison is only about the time constants, transient shapers work independent from level (they analyze the level change over time) compressors have a threshold. But I guess you get the idea.

Jeremy_NI

Some audio examples would have been helpful here. From the screenshots. I see nothing wrong here. If you dial attack to the max, the attack of the sound will be pushed. Unless I misunderstood what you were asking for.

Janiferi

I'll get back with audio as soon as possible. In the screenshot you can see five series of snare hits. Right when starting playback with +100 attack you can see the amplitude start at a lower level, almost like a brickwall limiter with long release, and crawling up to the expected level. The reverse is true with sustain at +100. The playback starts at higher amplitude level and slowly falls to expected level. Input or output volume does not affect this.

Problem is, it's always and only the first few hits that are affected. Starting playback, the volume of the first few hits of any drum with TM active is not constant, starting out at higher or lower amplitude depending on attack/sustain setting. And only when restarting playback, not when having long pauses between hits, not when looping. Only when stopping and starting.

There has to be something i've missed. Next up is trying out other DAWs, as i've only used reaper to test this.

Janiferi

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cFB19klR9VHPJfmFWR_g6Godq0K9xGoy/view?usp=sharing

Audio for your pleasure. Transient Master only active on snare, attack=0, sustain=+100.

I bounced two short clips, where you can hear that the first snare hit is significantly louder than the rest. no other dynamic fx in signal chain. If it were a snare roll, you could hear the amplitude curve shown in my original screenshots.

Am i daft for thinking that it shouldn't really work like this?

Uwe303

Hello,

this is expected behavior with those "extreme" settings, like with all dynamic processors you set those time constants also in relation to the distance between the notes ,and the length of those too, of course. You can also set a compressor with a very long releaseband short attack, for example, and the second note will be quieter and so on. It's not exactly the same but that comparison is only about the time constants, transient shapers work independent from level (they analyze the level change over time) compressors have a threshold. But I guess you get the idea.

Janiferi

Yeah i kinda could accept that if i had control over attack and release time, like i do with most comps. Maybe i'm not completely understanding the purpose of TM. Right now it's very frustrating to use as i can't really predict the behaviour. The first hits after playback are always louder/softer, but even with a long pause between hits, say a minute or so, it won't "release" like i would expect from a comp/limiter with a long release time. Right now i'm using an extra limiter with look-ahead on every track i've fattened the sustain on, just so they won't poke up everytime i stop and move the playhead. With attack softening, it's not so bad as the volume starts lower, but on bounce i still need to play a dummy note a few bars before the song starts, so that the volume would be constant throughout the render. Oh well, i'll just have to experiment with other tools for the sound i'm after.

Uwe303

I will also have a look and compare with another transient shaper in cubase, I I remember correctly and set attack high and release to 0 the attack of the sound will poke outy as you would expect, and so on. Also maybe better to use another sound for comparison additionally maybe not a sound with an rectangular amolitude phase. It also could be a behavior of your analyzer, I will use another one or just render the audio and look at the waveform.