Plugins constantly crash in Reason

DrAndy
DrAndy Member Posts: 21 Newcomer
edited July 2023 in Native Access

Is there a complaints manager anywhere? 6 months on from Komplete 14 upgrade and still still useless, loads of crashes. Its got to the point that I hate working with NI stuff.

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  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 655 Pro
    edited July 2023

    This comment is about as devoid from any info as possible.

    To be fair - there are literally thousands of us using K14 with complete success on both PCs and Macs - with NO issues whatsoever.

    If you could provide just a couple of examples as what is "useless" actually is - we may be able to help you.

    • What OS version and type?
    • What DAW and version?
    • Are your plugins updated?
    • What minimal steps for reproduction of the issue on your computer?

    There are a lot of experienced users in here - who have really seen it all at one time or another - myself included.

    Please expand a bit and let's see where it goes.

    VP

  • DrAndy
    DrAndy Member Posts: 21 Newcomer
    edited July 2023

    I use Windows Home

    Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-10510U CPU @ 1.80GHz  2.30 GHz

    Ram 12.0 GB (11.8 GB usable)

    Eveything is up to date

    When I open certain plugins i.e. Piano Colours in Kontakt 7 or earlier versions it takes 10 minutes to open whereas Komplete Kontrol does it straight away.

    I have had a LOT of crashs on opening plugins, Choir Omnia is truly awful. Most crashes occur when I click on the 'Open' button on a VST module, but a lot happen as well when I choose a plugin and try to open it, it just crashes Reason12

    Using 40's own drums and Butch Vig drums when trying to allocate independent outputs, I choose the number of outputs I want and then go to a pad to allocate it to an output and it crashes.

    I use Reason12 which is rock solid regarding crashes, I've barely had one in 10 years until I started using NI stuff. Admittedly I love the sound of the plugins but they have really turned me off making music. I tried Ableton for a couple of weeks but that was worse. I don't have an extensive diary of crashes written down but its fair to say I have fely like puching the screen more than a few times, especially when you have 10 or 15 in a session.

    I have told NI that I would be more than happy to accept some sort of refund and walk away from them.

    And I should also add that other people agree with me here.

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 655 Pro

    Thanks for the details.

    From what you have indicated - your machine layout looks a bit underpowered and slightlt odd as I have never seen a machine with "12" GB of RAM. Is this a laptop?

    And a 1.80GHZ CPU is not exactly going to set the world on fire but it is what it is.

    Regarding all the crashing - it is unfortunate that you have settled on Reason 12 as your DAW as while I am sure you get on with it fine - it is not exactly commonplace when most folks are running Studio One or Ableton or Cubase or Logic these days.

    And - as you describe - using "10 or 15" NI instruments/plugins in a single song with what appears to be a underpowered system is not going to be pretty regardless of what you believe Reason 12 is capable of or your "crash" history using other stuff.

    Finally - this is interesting "Most crashes occur when I click on the 'Open' button on a VST module". Not exactly sure what that means but it appears that Reason cannot properly load some plugins - which either means a Reason issue (my money is on anything VST3) OR some unknown incompatibility with NI AND Reason - which would not surprise me considering Reason 12 only supported VST2 plugins until late 2022.

    What I can say (with 100% certainty) is all the plugins you list having issues at your place - run fine here in Studio One 6.2.0. From Choir Omnia to BV Drums etc - I have nothing to report but smooth sailing.

    This may be one for support - but I can confirm no issues using Studio One with any of the plugs listed above and I cannot imagine that my install is "special" in any way.

    If you are running Windows - you should really take a look in Event Viewer (System or Application Logs) and see what OS is recording for "faults" during these crashes.

    VP

  • DrAndy
    DrAndy Member Posts: 21 Newcomer
    edited July 2023

    Yes this is a laptop.

    NI say an i5 is suitable for use with their software, I have had issues with CPU usage but can work around this by bouncing tracks to audio.

    Why are you surprised I using Reason as a DAW, I don't take offence with that but why do you think others are better?

    I did experiment with Ableton but never took to it and had a few crashes with that. I suppose I am in a position to use Reason as a plugin and not lose my instruments so might consider other options.

    When I said '10 or 15' in a session I meant crashes, not plugins open.

    "Finally - this is interesting "Most crashes occur when I click on the 'Open' button on a VST module". Not exactly sure what that means"

    I have enclosed a picture above to show a VST3 Rack module in Reason, by pressing 'Open' it expands it to show either Komplete Kontrol or Kontakt as you would see it.


    There might be something in what you say with Reason, they have given me a version to use so I can log faults.

    Thanks for your help

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 655 Pro
    edited July 2023

    Well - I did not say that any of the "other" DAWs out there were "better". What I did say is that they are much more commonplace and also serve as ideal comparison platforms for issues such as yours.

    Reason (in my own personal opinion) was never ever at the same level as a Studio One or Logic or even Ableton. They always struck me as a quirky option that seemed more relevant back in the "refill" days than as a full blown DAW. Again - that's my vibe and I would not discourage or influence anyone's choice of it - if it works for you - that's all that matters.

    That said - it is very telling that here I use Studio One and I have zero issues (with the exact same instruments) while you use Reason and your world is falling in with crashes. AND this assumes you and I are using the identical VST plugin versions written by NI - what does that tell you?

    I do not think that NI gives any more "good plugin code" to me or you or anyone else - but it is very clear that I have no problems while you have a ton.

    And to reiterate one more time - I am not doing anything special with any of the NI stuff here - I install, add to project and make noise like everyone else.

    However - I am not running a laptop. I am running Studio One v6.2 on a custom-built ASUS ProArt workstation with Windows 10 Pro and an Intel i5 chip with 64GB of RAM

    I would also add that I have seen scads of weirdness whenever I see (what appears to be) an "off the shelf" laptop (your giveaway is the 12GB of RAM) being used as a DAW.

    Not saying you need to buy something else (or maybe you do?) but rarely have I ever seen a Windows-based "retail" laptop (Staples, Dell, ASUS, anywhere) that is optimum for DAW use. The only laptop/notebooks that cut it in this space all come from Apple - but we both already knew that :)

    The regularity of your crashing makes me think there is something else going on - like heat. Or a faulty RAM stick or something obscure that no one would really notice (or think to check).

    I have my own classic story on this about 15 years ago - when my DAW at the time was crashing all over the place but only when loading specific apps and plugins. Turns out not only did I have a bad RAM stick (since when does anyone check that?) - the power supply (ZERO people think about this) on my DAW was failing (slowly) and only after changing both of these VERY obscure items out - did everything settle down.

    I am here to tell you - literally "anything" could be in the loop on any computer causing issues.

    So, is it Reason + NI? Is it your machine + Reason + NI? While my guess is that this IS environmental (your machine) - it is a stark difference in usability between our two DAWS.

    Not really sure if I am ready to blame NI here just yet. Or talk to the "complaint" department :)

    Hope you figure this out.

    Cheers!

    VP

  • DrAndy
    DrAndy Member Posts: 21 Newcomer
    edited July 2023

    Well Im going to give Studio One a blast for a couple of days and see how it goes.

    Well the 40s drums happened exactly the same on Studio One! so that seems like a NI issue.

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 655 Pro
    edited July 2023


    If 40s Drums crashed in Studio One - it's almost a lock that this is environmental (AKA your device OR your audio interface - which we never discussed either).

    I haven't had a single plugin crash (especially NI) in Studio One in the last 5-7 years. If this truly was a 40s Drum Problem - I should have it as well (and do not). You and I are running the same plugin code.

    40s also loads in Kontakt as well - which introduces a whole other level of complexity into this.

    Give me some specs on your audio interface, Kontakt version, Native Access version and available disk space on the laptop.

    VP

  • DrAndy
    DrAndy Member Posts: 21 Newcomer

    Im on a focusrite interface

    The 40s problem is in Kontakt7, its when you click a pad to allocate drum outputs then it goes.

    So far Studio One is OK, reading manual at the moment as tutorial vids are ****** it comes with. Ableton were very good for this.

    Impressed with CPU so far as I stacked some ones that gave me overload in Reason and seems ok but need to do some serious testing.

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 655 Pro

    Ah - the plot thickens with that "drum outputs" comment - because this is Kontakt and because it's output routing is so convoluted and lame AND needs to be handled with kid gloves BEFORE you load any actual instrument - that in itself could be a cause for your frustration.

    In my experience - I needed to create several different drum output maps , save them AND assign one as a new default PRIOR to loading or recording anything in Kontakt.

    If you haven't done that yet - I can see why crashing could be a thing here.

    Now - I would never (have never) attempted to use 40s in a multi-output situation which makes your scene much different than mine.

    I will test some of these scenarios out this weekend and see what happens.

    VP

  • DrAndy
    DrAndy Member Posts: 21 Newcomer

    I wasnt doing it myself. I was watching a Kontakt7 tutorial video and it said how to do it so I tried it and voila! I don't see me splitting many outputs in Kontakt really. I will still be using a lot or Reason and instruments and combinators and the routing with them is great.

  • DrAndy
    DrAndy Member Posts: 21 Newcomer

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    I've now reformatted my external HD to NTFS and the problem still occcurs and some of the plugins were also on my internal HD and it still happened..

    It also occurs in Studio One, a totally different DAW though not as badly. My laptop is a Dell and exceeds the specification for both DAWs and the NI plugins.

    NI have previously said certain computer configurations were compatible with certain plugins when they weren't as they caused problems in the past, in fact they gave me a free upgrade because of this so I suspect a similar thing is happening here. I have a fairly common setup so I don't think its just the DAWs and my computer at fault.

    So far Im still learning Studio One but quite enjoying it and my Reason12 stuff works perfectly in it.

  • MyStudioOne
    MyStudioOne Member Posts: 249 Pro

    Glad to hear that you are taking to Studio One. I came from Cubase and never looked back to this day.

    That said, my ears perked up when I saw you are running all this with a laptop which likely means you have a lot of stuff running to/from limited ports. I didn't see you mention where your libraries are stored but since Choir Omnia is literally the biggest library and your system performs the worst with that plugin, it seems like a good possibility that hard drive read/write speed may be a factor. But also I would look at your connections. Presumably you are using a USB hub of some sort? If so, is the HUB powered? If you have an external hard drive and an audio interface running off the hub, it really should be.

    Every tweak helps. On that note, an i5 laptop may meet the minimum requirements, but it is pretty borderline for what you are asking it to do. and 12gb ram is ok, but not great either. So borderline at best on that front and couple that with HUGE libraries and your little i5 is going to be panting of course. And on top of that, it is also trying to run your audio interface. Simply put, if you can't get a better PC or laptop, look at optimizing your setup any way you can. Do some research. The NI software may give you grief, while other stuff doesn't. OK, but that could just mean the NI stuff just uses more resources that you don't have at your disposal.

    I am not an NI "groupie" by any means, but I use it primarily and I like it a lot. I would just hate to see you give up on NI if your gear is the issue.

  • DrAndy
    DrAndy Member Posts: 21 Newcomer

    Regarding ports, I have 2 in use, 1 is for my focusrite 2i2 interface and the other has a 7 way adapter which is connected to a small Aleis keyboard, an external SSD hard drive and dongle for a wireless keyboard mouse. There are other connections but all are self powered.

    Some of my libraries are on an external 1TB SSD (Samsung T7) and where possible the most used are stored internally. Loadups are fast and I don't use a plugin really until its loaded.

    The issue I mentioned earlier with VP regarding 40s and Butch Vig Drums is actually a known bug and NI are investigating it.

    MY processor is an Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-10510U CPU @ 1.80GHz  2.30 GHz, not an i5 and I rarely get past 25% CPU usage according to Studio One.

    The crashing occurs when I maximise Komplete or Kontakt and is intermittent. They don't crash when Im using them.

    I use Reason gear as well which is excellent and its workflow that potentially is making me thing about moving DAW, not the Reason instruments.

  • lord-carlos
    lord-carlos Member Posts: 2,001 Expert

    If you look at the specs, the 1.8 Ghz is just the base clock. It does not mean much. The CPU can boost up to 4.90 GHz (Given enough power and cooling)

  • DrAndy
    DrAndy Member Posts: 21 Newcomer

    So does that mean my CPU is ok then? Im not a computer geek really and only understand basics.

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