How do you make CC7 Volume changes apply to a multi as a WHOLE?

Chrisulrich

Dear Anyone.

Again - Kontakt Raving NOOB alert so please assume I know nothing and you won't be far wrong!!

I've got Kontakt6 and Korg M1 Emulator. If I set up a combi in the Korg, I get a bunch of the presets it's got already, set their individual sound volumes in relation to eachother and, when I use the combi on a track, if I use CC7 to change the volume it changes the volume of the combi as a WHOLE. The internal relationships between the sounds doesn't change. So if Sound One is on 30 and Sound 2 is on 15 they'll STAY on 30 and 15, it's just the combi as a WHOLE will get louder. I'm guessing the Korg uses CC7 kinda like GAIN (but remember I don't really understand any of this techie stuff too well so don't take that GAIN bit as gospel!)

When I set up a multi in Kontakt and use CC7 to change a multi-sound's volume, it applies the change to EACH INSTRUMENT WITHIN THE SOUND. So if I had one internal sound on 20 and another one on 30, setting CC7 to 80 - say - in my DAW would put BOTH INTERNAL KONTAKT SOUNDS on 80! So now they're not on their original settings of 20 and 30, they're BOTH on 80.

Is there a way of making Kontakt behave like the Korg, so if I use CC7 to turn a sound up it applies the sound level to the multi as a WHOLE, NOT to each individual sound within the Multi? I mean there's gotta be a way to do that or you couldn't use multis really, could you!?!

Yours frustratedly

Chris.

stephen24

My best advice is already in my previous post, which you may care to read again, carefully this time.

The main problem is that you have misunderstood the basic structure of Kontakt, or indeed of computer-generated music in general. The Multi, or Rack, represents an ensemble, and since players in a ensemble don't all synchronously change their volume by exactly the same amount, you won't find it easy to do this in Kontakt, or indeed any system. The cc# message has a channel number, so it can be directed at a specific instrument, which is one reason why it can't control the output of a multi, which obviously doesn't have a channel number. (Incidentally, the general rule is, if R-clicking on a slider has no effect, the slider cannot be automated.)

Your best bet is to convert your multi into a single instrument. You shouldn't find this too difficult:

Open a completely new empty instrument. Open its Group Editor and Edit>Delete the existing group.

Open the Group Editor of each instument of your multi in turn, and Edit>Copy the group(s), then Edit>Paste it into your new instrument.

You can now adjust the balance etc with the Amplfier controls in each group, and the overall volume in the Instrument Header.

Incidentally Kontakt isn't "mine". I'm just a user, like you.

stephen24

Kontakt is designed to have multiple independent instruments within a "multi" each with its own controls. So your proposal is not how Kontakt was designed.

It would be easier to advise if you made it clear what you want your volume control to achieve. Is it just to get the right overall volume for your piece, or do you want this volume to change during the performance?

If the former, simplest to do it within your DAW or with the volume knob on your hifi. Or you could use the Output section in Kontakt, though this can't be controlled by MIDI.

If the latter, your music would sound much better if you had a separate volume envelope for each instrument, so they weren't all exactly the same. Alternatively you could rearrange and instead have multiple groups within one instrument, each with its own volume knob in the Amplifier section, and using the Instrument Header volume slider for overall control. It would be possible to write a script to do what you want, though I wouldn't recommend it.

Tell us a bit more about your setup.

PoorFellow

So , I am rather new to all of this myself so this is just more like me sharing my stray thoughts on the subject !

When using Kontakt as a 'Plug-in and you make a 'multi' are they not capable of being assigned a separate Midi channel for each instrument ? , I mean if so could one then not just run the stuff through something else prior to feeding it back to the DAW ? If so (?) , though it might not improve overall stability and performance then rather than opening Kontakt plug.in then one could maybe open an instance of Voltage Modular and then use the plug-in host of that to open the Kontakt plugin and then use modules to make a volume control for each midi channel prior to feeding it back to the DAW ?

Being relatively new at all of this then I might have misunderstood the OP here or even the issue , if so I apologize in advance ! :-)

Ref. : The only VM bundle that comes with the plug-in host is the Voltage Modular Core (+ Electro Drums) , so not in the free bundle but it has been on sale regularly : https://cherryaudio.com/products/voltage-modular-bundle-comparison

Chrisulrich

Dear Stephen24.

What I want my volume control to achieve is turning a multi up and down as though it were one instrument. Exactly as if you were turning an MP3 or a CD up and down. Honestly, what's the point of creating a MULTI, spending ages carefully balancing all the instruments within it to make One Overall Combined Sound if the moment you want to make that sound louder or quieter it kills the balance between the sounds by making them all the same volume?

The Korg M1 Emulator does this perfectly, by default, without you having to think about it. (But Kontakts' sounds are far superior, hence me fighting this one!) In the Korg M1 Emulator, you select sounds from its library, balance them into a combined preset (called a 'combi' but it's the same idea as your 'multi'). You assign the combi to one MIDI track. When you apply CC7 changes to the MIDI track in your DAW, it turns the bunch of instruments up and down AS A GROUP without touching their internal sound settings.

The perfect solution in Kontakt would be to send CC7 commands to the channel sliders in the little mixer above the Kontakt keyboard - but I can't find a way to assign CC7 to the little sliders. You can't drag and drop it from the CC list onto the sliders, Kontakt won't let you, you get a No Entry sign. Your manual clearly states you can assign MIDI learn to any knobs or sliders....

To assign any of KONTAKT PLAYER's sliders or knobs to a MIDI controller:

1. Right-click the knob or slider you want to assign.
2. Select Learn MIDI CC# Automation.
3. Turn the knob or move the slider on the MIDI device. The control detects the movement instantly and the parameter is assigned to the MIDI controller.

The above is a direct quote from your manual. Except it don't work. Try right-clicking the sliders directly above the little keyboard - nothing happens! I'd LURVE to be able to right click on them and assign CC7 to the slider controlling the MULTI - but Kontakt won't let me! So what's the point of spending ages creating a perfectly balanced Overall Sound from a bunch of Kontakt instruments - a 'multi' - if, when you've created it, you can't control it without killing the balance between the sounds?

The Korg M1 Emulator can do it, your product's superior in every other way, why can't yours do it too? Or is there a way to route incoming CC7 commands to the little mixer sliders above the keyboard? All you have to do to make multis worth creating is let Kontakt assign CC7 to the little mixer sliders above the keyboard. Surely it can do that, can't it?

Yours disbelievingly - everything in Kontakt seems to be about Output TO, not Input FROM as far as I can see -

Chris. Who's seriously hoping the above expostulation will have Kontakt workers queuing up to tell him how incredibly stupid a user he is and how incredibly simple it is to assign CC commands to the Kontakt sliders! G'wan. Prove to me how easy it is. You know you want to!!

stephen24

My best advice is already in my previous post, which you may care to read again, carefully this time.

The main problem is that you have misunderstood the basic structure of Kontakt, or indeed of computer-generated music in general. The Multi, or Rack, represents an ensemble, and since players in a ensemble don't all synchronously change their volume by exactly the same amount, you won't find it easy to do this in Kontakt, or indeed any system. The cc# message has a channel number, so it can be directed at a specific instrument, which is one reason why it can't control the output of a multi, which obviously doesn't have a channel number. (Incidentally, the general rule is, if R-clicking on a slider has no effect, the slider cannot be automated.)

Your best bet is to convert your multi into a single instrument. You shouldn't find this too difficult:

Open a completely new empty instrument. Open its Group Editor and Edit>Delete the existing group.

Open the Group Editor of each instument of your multi in turn, and Edit>Copy the group(s), then Edit>Paste it into your new instrument.

You can now adjust the balance etc with the Amplfier controls in each group, and the overall volume in the Instrument Header.

Incidentally Kontakt isn't "mine". I'm just a user, like you.

stephen24

Don't mention it.