Native Access - Mid Q2 Update

Jojo123

@Paul B - your post with 4 bullet points…

June 24 edited June 24

Everything in your post here (I wish NI would number forum posts) I absolutely agree with +++. Most of it 1000%

I think where my sticking point with you remains, is probably not being sure what timing factor you're referring to and hence seeing a somewhat contradiction. That is, what you think should happen RIGHT now, verses when things get better in the future. eg in this post below, after you said what should be, and I agreed with, you didn't clearly say after the "But" that this also should be the future. It leans more to the "now". Sure you can say you didn't explicitly say it was for now, but you didn't say it was for the future either. Open ended comments can leave grey areas, which I think are an achillies heel in discussions like this. Some people (not you) like to make this an art form, but I digress

But…

Now that the Native Access team have started to take a
stability first approach, I am putting my voice out there as someone who
understands why automatic updates are important. ……………….

and the rest of that paragraph seems to me you saying this should happen now. In a word, you cant simultaneously have it both ways.

Claims of ignoring problems, blaming users, gaslighting, what are these people on about?

My own personaI experience. I can agree with @tempsperdu especially for the ignoring part. Right here in this thread Ive been ignored. Hayo is picking out who he wants to pick out to answer. I advocate for privacy, and He knows I have uncomfortable questions about what NTK Demon is actually doing. Until I can turn the thing off I won't be happy.

Jojo123

@Paul B

Just to comment on your experience on "both sides of the desk" so to speak, I think most people in these situations realize when people (customers) vent their frustrations, or have a genuine criticism, that its mostly not a personal attack. You're always gonna get the exceptions, but we all have to deal with those through many aspects of life, so I understand that being the person at the coalface is right across the board, not just NI.

The customer is blocked from the higher echelons, and I wouldn't doubt that this also can be used as a mechanism in as much as the poor person dealing with the complaints is often hogtied, or can only give a 1/2 baked answer, and the customer is left in a place of just having to suck it up. Of course this dilema is much more prevalent in an online world, where accountablility is much harder to enforce.

lifeuno

a company can focus on supporting its users AND supporting its bottom line (we're not naive; NI isn't Unicef, bills have to be paid, we get it.) sadly, it seems that NI has repeatedly and disproportionately sacrificed many users' basic functionality in order to please PE's interests, alienating even NI's most loyal users, without whom, this whole ecosystem/business becomes a footnote in the history of music innovation and yet another example of PE/VC firing innovators/creatives, resorting to looting/pillaging IP and blaming it on "all you can eat shrimp." and that's how you form a run on sentence. one.

Paul B

@Jojo123 I think now is appropriate for auto-updates because now is when there is a focus on increasing stability, and the best way to make sure everyone gets the more stable versions as they come out is to have NA auto update. Also, once you give users the option to turn off auto update, it becomes difficult to take that away even if you have many stable versions in a row.

But I understand your (and others') reasons not to want auto updates until NA is stable. Maybe NI will agree with you. Maybe not. But I think this line of discussion is played out and I hope that I have managed to make it clear what I believe even if you do not agree with it.

The specific claims of ignoring problems I disputed were the claims that NI ignored problems they knew were bugs in their software and combined that with trying to psychologically manipulate users into believing the problems they were having were due to them (the users) doing something wrong. This is what gaslighting means – the exact wording of what I responded to was ‘ignoring then blaming users, then gaslighting them’. That is a very serious accusation of malicious misconduct. And it is an extraordinary claim which has been repeated without evidence. One with which I have no interest in engaging further. I am only writing this to clarify my original comment.

Jojo123

@Paul B

Im not fond of going around in circles either - I will finish with this which I don't mean in a horrible way at all, but Im not shying away from telling you how it is.

Thankyou for your response in clarifying your position, which has only confirmed what I thought (just so you know, I dont say that with an ounce of sarcasm or anything like it). It is not a good enough reason to say NI are focussing on it. We need to see the result of that focus, not the other way around, like putting the cart before the horse.

All I understand is you are OK with a NA which you have said yourself, is not right yet, you are OK about it still breaking peoples systems. You are OK with us having no way to stop that and I find that pretty awful, which is tantamount to dictating what we should just put up with without a choice. We all should have a choice how we manage our systems. It should not be a russian roulette situation when people feel like they are taking a chance with NA updating itself, like some have stated recently in this thread. Again NOT EVEN M$ or APPLE do this.

There's no way around it, either NA is ready for prime time or its not. One look on this forum will tell you what the sentiment is if you're truly open to see it.

tempsperdu

Paul B

The specific claims of ignoring problems I disputed were the claims that
NI ignored problems they knew were bugs in their software and combined
that with trying to psychologically manipulate users into believing the
problems they were having were due to them (the users) doing something
wrong. This is what gaslighting means – the exact wording of what I
responded to was ‘ignoring then blaming users, then gaslighting them’.
That is a very serious accusation of malicious misconduct. And it is an
extraordinary claim which has been repeated without evidence. One with
which I have no interest in engaging further. I am only writing this to
clarify my original comment.

So to add insult to injury, you're basically accusing me of lying…that's very kind of you. It's also something I'd be remarkably foolhardy to do on a public forum, did that not occur to you? There is proof, but you'd have to be on the beta project to see at least possibly the worst of it, if it hasn't been deleted.

I don't think it was particularly malicious misconduct, but a means of trying to deflect from the problems at hand, though it was extremely unprofessional and helpful to no-one, rather similar to your criticisms around those events, some might think

Paul B

@Jojo123 No, I am not nor did I say I was okay with those things. In fact I said more than once now that I am not. You are obviously uninterested in what I am actually saying, so I am done with you. Please do not tag me again.

@tempsperdu gaslighting is a specific thing in which one person deliberately tries to make the other believe that a bad thing that is happening is their fault and theirs alone. It is a psychologically manipulative technique and is always malicious. Your framing whatever happened as such was also helpful to no one.

Jojo123

To Paul B - < I take it this isn't tagging . I dont actually know what tagging is tho I know the word is used in this forum Ive never seen it anywhere else. I have seen where you can block users, so be my guest and do that if you wish. When I come to a forum I have NEVER seen where a person can demand that someone else not respond to them, thus taking away their right of reply. Nowhere have I attacked you, or devolved into filthy language or anything else. So no, RESPECTFULLY, you are only seeing things through developers eyes and you are not willing to see what Im actually saying.

pcafe

"We are working to have 3.12.0 be a small but impactful release focused on stabilization."

Sorry, no success with that….

3.12.0 shows as installed but doesn't start. We have another buggy release that is causing headaches.

Mark Oxley

Installed but won't open on windows 11.

How pathetic this is.

The final straw for me.

ZDPhoenix

Native Access is still a mess years later?

This is really sad.

olafmol

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/163418#Comment_163418

even a bigger mess. But let’s start a Survey! And update a logo!

Mr. J

Fix this software Pronto. Stop adding things to make your lives better, and ours more complicated. Simple problem…last version of Native Access worked…version 3.12 does not. What ever your people did, undo it. Stop playing these games man… The customer is TELLING you that YOUR PRODUCT is OUT OF LINE. Do you really want this sentiment to go viral?… Lets fix this issue and keep moving forward…Dont lose your fan base over something this small…yet significant. LETS GO NI…You CAN do this…

Mr. J

Take 2:

Another approach might be, again, to TRUST your valued customers to update their Native Access when it has PROVEN to be stable. We understand that your business needs to thrive. However if YOUR product is unstable, then how can we trust to even use it to begin with…when the software's proper function DIRECTLY affects our businesses. Now, as valued customers, We all definitely upgrade our ends when it is necessary. We also wish to remain up on updates and changes, as well as, help your business stay ahead of the game. However, in these industry rocky times a lot of us can not afford the potential instability that has been going on. So, as valued customers, We are simply asking you to TRUST us a little more… so that we can continue to support NI as patrons. Then all of our futures can be bright with the products and services yet to come. 😎 Sorry about the comment above… a little agitated with the landlord.

Kaiwan_NI

Hi everyone, Hayo has just posted the Q3 update. Check out the details in this post to see what's in the pipeline here:

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/33973/native-access-q3-update

He'll be available to answer your questions until the end of the month. See you over there!