Native Access Q1 Update
Comments
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"Lack of compatibility with latest MacOS after 9 months, this is not acceptable. And no, I do not rush to update the OS to latest version, but 9 months is laughable"
While I am not a Mac user (but remain infinitely fascinated with users that somehow "need" to remain in the Apple orchard - regardless of the pain that company subjects them to) I do find this latest "struggle" with Sonoma (by many DEVS - not just NI) to actually be sad and most definitely not laughable.
Even you can't ignore the incredibly idiotic news that broke last week about how Sonoma 14.4 suddenly broke a whole NEW pile of stuff out there (like i-Lok etc) causing many vendors from UA to Softube to issue warnings to stay far away from this thing.
If I were a DEV (any DEV) - and had already endured massive struggles this past 9 months to get my stuff working with the first three or four iterations of this OS - I could not imagine the swear words I would invent if I suddenly discovered Apple just kicked me in the teeth again.
I am certainly not defending NIs inability to figure this thing out - but Apple is NOT making this any easier with the kinda s*** they are shoveling.
How does anyone ever get ahead?
VP
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I will refrain from discussing why I prefer Apple over PC. I just do, let’s leave it at that.
As for the rest, I agree with you partially. Apple is always changing something and to stay in a loop, devs need to follow their programming guidelines, use latest tools from Apple and write conforming code. Some developers are OK with that and some are not. Apple is simply different platform with different approach to coding, where most, if not all, APIs are provided by them. If the software uses Apple APIs, the chance of something breaking is minimal. If the developers write their own, like they do on PCs, here comes the trouble.
Pace is a known offender, nothing new here. All devs who use iLok are reliant on them being compatible, hence the warnings.
i haven’t updated to 14.4, why would I? I always wait 2-3 months, to be sure everything works ok.
I use presently: Logic, AAS, Synapse, Rob Papen, Rfx, Lennar Digital, U-He, Spectrasonics, TAL, Korg, UVI, Softube, East West and Wave Alchemy. Everything works, everything is promptly updated.
I’ve previously used IK Multimedia, Arturia and Waves - that also worked and was promptly updated.
NI doesn’t work most of the time and is not PROMPTLY updated.
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"If the software uses Apple APIs, the chance of something breaking is minimal. If the developers write their own, like they do on PCs, here comes the trouble"
I totally get it - but if I was a third party DEV - I will decide what goes into my plugin code and not what Apple thinks is good for compatibility. Even if that means making users wait for months.
This whole Sonoma debacle makes me really wonder if some devs have simply had enough. Why would anyone "want" to bother with this nonsense every year?
On an unrelated note - this is interesting:
Desktop macOS Version Market Share Worldwide | Statcounter Global Stats
This chart cut is from Oct 2023 - Feb 2024.
If Sonoma is such a "thing" - who is using it and why is Catalina so hot (still)?
VP
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"Also, “new” NI can’t code on Mac. They used to know how to do it, but now they don’t. And before anyone says that it is Apple’s fault, other German companies seem to be doing OK (Ableton, Steinberg, U-He, Bitwig, SugarBytes - to name just a few). The complexity of Live or Cubase/Nuendo is far greater than KK or Kontakt, yet somehow they manage…"
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Well that's certainly not true. There's a rash of Sonoma problems for LOTS of folks including Ableton on Ableton 12. All very well documented. It's even been documented on these pages where Apple has agreed on problems THEY need to fix in order to fix problems reported to them by NI. They coded them correctly based on the Apple guidelines. But those guidelines weren't tested thoroughly so they had problems. Those are an inherent part of an industry that's built on interdependencies between operating systems and the software that runs on them
This is not a problem of any one not being able to code on either system. It's a matter of inconsistent testing both on Apple's part, NI's part, and even Ableton's part with Ableton 12. That hasn't changed in over 50 years I've spent in commercial software development. But what makes these things seem to happen most often is when there is a MAJOR change in the underlying architecture such as in the case of Ableton 12, Kontakt 7, and the new versions of Komplete Kontrol to support the new more intelligent architecture of their smart keyboards on top of a new architecture and operating system for Apple...all pretty much concurrently. And that's exactly the reason I have no interest in moving to Ableton 12 or Windows 11 at this point. I don't need to invite those headaches and there's nothing for me to gain in either case.
What I most frequently see on these pages are collisions between older and newer versions of NI software in order to support older projects or older VST libraries. I don't fault people if they choose to do that, but the alternative is how I choose to do it which is get rid of my older Kontakt and KK versions and commit to the new architecture. Does that create problems? Sure it does. I just finished spending an hour or so fixing up one of my projects for exactly that reason in Ableton 11 because I built it originally using the older versions of KK and Valves. But I saw the problem immediately because the older library was missing in two of my tracks because I no longer have that version of KKon my system. So I replaced it with the new version in both tracks, with the new KK and decided I'd use the upgraded version of Valves 2 which vastly improved the tracks. And it's ready to go for this weekend.
But that's all a part of being in this industry and using the technology that enables it. It didn't bother me to do that because I know I made the right decision for me to to commit solely to the new KK architecture, and that was a good decision for me. But I certainly didn't start off by blaming any of the vendors whose product I'm using. That accomplishes nothing and will never solve the problem because the problem isn't their responsibility to fix. It's mine. Because I made choices to move forward with the new architectures so it's my responsibility to get my projects working. That's all a part of being a "professional" in a dynamic highly technical environment. Other wise you may as well go back to using modems and text based chat servers. Those would probably still work for you.
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As I said, it’s a different approach to coding. There is no coincidence that it is usually PC-centric devs who struggle with Apple compatibility as they have exactly the same approach to it as you said, they want to write their own APIs, as they do on PC platform.
As for devs who had enough, they simply should stop (or have stopped already) coding for Mac. I’m all for it - why pretend there’s Mac version if it doesn’t work properly?
But if you look at my previous post, I’ve provided a number of devs who didn’t “‘have enough” and are fine with it. Just not NI 😉
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"But if you look at my previous post, I’ve provided a number of devs who didn’t “‘have enough” and are fine with it. Just not NI 😉"
True dat.
But none of those devs you mentioned - have anywhere near a product lineup like NI has to deal with OR the worldwide reach.
Kontakt alone would generate world wide chaos due to it's ubiquitous nature. There are no half measures when ensuring that single app is properly certified for Sonoma. And any deviance from it or problem after will generate non-stop hassle for NI - I do not envy them in the least when it comes to Kontakt. And that is just one - of hundreds.
And cmon - I love U-he too - but can count their meaningful tools on one hand.
Not exactly a "fair" comparison but I get your point.
VP
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Your point of view is skewed due to you being IT specialist/software developer. I’m sorry but staying on Windows 10, which soon will be deprecated and won’t get any security updates is not something end user would or should do.
I am end user, a musician or music producer (‘however you name it), not IT specialist. I don’t care WHY something doesn’t work and it’s not on me to fix it. It’s on Apple and NI.
NI has constant problems on Mac platform, it’s not just Sonoma. It’s been going on for years now.
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I find it charming that (based on the statements I see in posts like this) the people making these kind of allegations have clearly never been within driving distance of any place doing actual commercial production code. With these kind of silly assumptions they'd probable make pretty good news writers though.
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"I am end user, a musician or music producer (‘however you name it), not IT specialist. I don’t care WHY something doesn’t work and it’s not on me to fix it. It’s on Apple and NI"
As am I - but on Windows.
Have never had an issue I could not oversome - old , new or otherwise.
And right now - my setup has never been more stable. Windows 10 all the way of course.
VP
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I also find it charming. Most users have no idea what is required to get this stuff working.
And that it even works at all - remains fascinating as well.
VP
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A complexity of Kontakt is nothing in comparison with complexity of a DAW (Live, Bitwig, Cubase, Nuendo, Digital Performer, Fruity Loops, etc.)
So how many apps? Kontakt, Reaktor, Massive, Massive X, FM8, Battery, Maschine, Komplete Kontrol, Guitar Rig. It’s 9 apps, the rest is just libraries.
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Unluckily I’m also past the hope of seeing our attempts to show them what users can perceive as wrong behaviors being in any way useful. Probably they just see us as an obstacle.
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@DunedinDragon and @Vocalisten
Thank you both for being condescending. So how many apps have you both written for Apple platform?
No, I’m not a developer but I’m gifted with brain and ability to read. There are many audio plugin developer forums all over internet where one can read how those things work from developer’s point of view. Many heated discussions about the subject. Enough for intelligent person to draw conclusions.
If you want to stay on a version of operating system which is deprecated and not supported anymore (‘very soon), by all means do.
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"A complexity of Kontakt is nothing in comparison with complexity of a DAW (Live, Bitwig, Cubase, Nuendo, Digital Performer, Fruity Loops, etc.)"
The DAW is a separate track that needs it's own attention.
And while you are chewing over "complexity" in your mind - let's not forget that all those NI apps you just listed - all need to work seamlessly in Komplete Kontrol 2/3 - and when in there - then need to properly host/accommodate every NI library, every third party NKS partner library to every VST plugin to who knows what else. Not to mention talk to the hardware, audio interface and whatever flavour of headache inducing "security" Apple has cooked up this time round.
If this is not the biggest compatibility puzzle to navigate - Kontakt aside - I do not know what is. Not a surprise they are so far behind.
VP
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Everyone, I think we went completely off track here vs the actual topic which was the Q1 update for Native Access. We're locking this thread now and we will be back with another Native Access in due time.
Please note that if you do have any issues with Native Access, you can still create another thread here or contact our support teams. Thank you.
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