Future of Reaktor
Comments
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What I don't understand is that Reaktor doesn't support vst3.
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I guess, it will get VST3 when it gets M1 native. Other NI SW as well.
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I think it's inevitable at some point. It's not surprising to me though that it took a while. There was a very interesting thread in the developers section of the KVR forum about VST3. Seems that some developers are only supporting it at all because they have been forced to by shady licencing manipulation from Steinberg... if you can find that thread its worth a read. There's some technical stuff about how VST3 makes life much more difficult for small teams, while offering very little in terms of benefit over VST2. It would seem that most of the "it's so much better" is pure marketing. It's mostly better for Steinberg, and not so much for anyone else. Some of the folk involved in that discussion are industry gurus, it's not second hand fan fiction arguments.
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It seems there was a point where one of Steinbergs licence agreements that developers had to sign to use the newest version of VST3 had a clause that automatically nullified their licence to use VST2. So for someone like NI with a large back catalogue, that would mean that supporting VST3 would mean they couldn't sell (or even maintain?) any of their older VST 2 products. Forcing them to update all products immediately, drop any old products that would be too costly to port to VST3, or just wait as long as possible to migrate to VST3.
I'm not sure if this nasty licence trap was rescinded (anyone?) in later licence agreements, but whatever, it was a nasty trick to play. Maybe NI have been slow to migrate because there are other legal subtleties in play in the VST3 licencing that they are trying to mitigate... who knows... The whole thing smelled like Steinberg attempting to leverage more control in the industry via licencing trickery... ecosystem wars and all that jazz
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I've never seen that, may have happened before (*). What happened in 2018 is that Steinberg announced a final period to ask for VST2 licenses, after which they wouldn't be granted anymore. It forced new developers to use VST3, but I think it was mainly intended to force some well known hosts to finally support VST3 (some still don't). Then they GPLd the VST3 SDK. People were very angry, but I think it was reasonable: VST3 had been around for 10 years, and big hosts not implementing it meant the transition could never complete.
Of course, there are good reasons why people didn't want to make the move. VST3 is arguably over-engineered, and though some advantages are crucial (like better channel routing, which allowed sidechaining), some are ignored by most developers (like audio rate automation). They also botched MIDI plugin support, insisting that the API was not intended for that. They were rather headstrong about some design decisions that were widely seen as plain wrong.
Some may know that VST2 was discontinued this year, so Cubase / Nuendo / WaveLab will support it on AS only under Rosetta, and future versions will drop support completely. Of course, people are mad again.
(*) Found it -it wasn't before but after. They tried to make the March 2021 version of the VST3 license terminate any previous VST2 licenses. They backed down later.
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No thats not correct. No idea what specific thread you're talking about, but I may have seen it along with others. Im talking about what Ive seen in general including but not limited to Mac vs PC attacks. If you think Im aiming at you and youre happy to take one for the boys (if thats what you meant) - well there's no stopping that I guess. Im speaking from the perspective of a relative newcomer to NI and some unpleasant back and forth between some members which I noticed not long after I bought my NI product (last year) and its unfortunate that it still continues. It isn't conducive to a respectful atmosphere and it doesnt help NI. The OP surely had a right to post about what they thought were valid concerns and was answered by NI, which OP acknowledged. Nothing wrong with that that I can see.
All self entitlement, sarcasm and ridicule does is get peoples backs up or makes them back away altogether (the very antithesis of what you say you want) so fail to see how that helps NI and the future of Reaktor. Zero justification in that if you really do care. Your own words might very well be self fulfilled where my situation with Reaktor is concerned.
It doesn't matter how you want to pigeon hole me. Not that I have to justify myself but Im typing this from a Windows PC. I hold no loyalty to it nor the Mac. I give credit where I think its due for either platform and whether it puts me in a huge majority or minority of one - that doesn't matter either. Theyre just tools. Nothing wrong with discussing them respectfully. Thats all.
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Why does Massive support vst3?I still think that NI sells samples crazily. I feel that they value what they think is valuable. But why can't it be Reaktor, but Massive？
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Another very important problem is that Reaktor should support high-definition display, but it has not done so for a long time. Look at FLStudio and Reason!!!
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Honestly i find the Reaktor forum one of the most respectful forum i have ever seen,all the people who have been here forever "including ColB" are respectful and can hold a conversation without insulting.
That thread about M1 Apple was a bit more tense but that hasn't happened in a long time and for me it wasn't the end of the world,just some emotions here and there but people were able to come back to the topic and not go too far.
Any other forums i have ever been in (including KVR) are a lot more chaotic and offensive with obvious insults thrown around than what happened here. Well that's my perception...so i am surprised when i read you were put off or concerned about the discussions here,i think that is completely unrealistic to expect no conflicts in a public forum and i do think it was handled well for the most part,you also have to take into account how it is in general and not just one thread or topic,people are very helpful here.
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You started with something very different.
Sad about the ongoing sarcasm (lowest form of wit) allowed to run rampant on the Forums and the vitrioloc hatred directed at Mac users
The last post in the thread Colin talks about is yours (and btw, I agreed with it), so you know which thread it is. You may find in that thread a list I compiled with the "vitriolic" comments directed by Mac users to everyone else. In all fairness, the discussion got intense because one Mac fan got particularly aggressive with one Intel fan that wouldn't let it go, then Mac team closed ranks because they seemingly couldn't tolerate the idea that maybe, to some extent, it's somehow possible that part of the issue has something to do with Apple's business practices being just a little objectionable, and some of us made the mistake of engaging, just like I'm doing again. And I do it because, as I said there, this doesn't happen often here, and it's really annoying that every time it cools down, some Mac user brings it up again. So, please, can't we just stop it? Some people have whatever reasons to really dislike Apple. Some people think Apple is responsible for this or that. No one has anything against anyone here.
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Why does Massive support vst3?I still think that NI sells samples crazily. I feel that they value what they think is valuable. But why can't it be Reaktor, but Massive？
Well, I do not know, why Massive yes, and Reaktor no. Either it was way easier, either more cost effective. I guess Massive patches are part of Expansions. And Expansions probably bring more money, than Reaktor... Maybe NI has decided, if they have to go deep into Reaktor internals to make it AS compatible, they do more things... And do not feel VST3 in Reaktor is that high priority..
Probably HiDPI would be more important....
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They also botched MIDI plugin support, insisting that the API was not intended for that.
This may have something to do with it. Reaktor can be used as a MIDI plugin, to convert some MIDI input to some other MIDI output. Literally quoting a VST dev:
your frustration comes from the misunderstanding that you can build MIDI plug-ins with VST. VST describes an audio plugin API. That you could misuse version 2 for building MIDI plug-ins was not intended. You need a MIDI plug-in API which does not exist across hosts.
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Thank you for presenting your point of view in a respectful manner, it is appreciated.
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i'll take you at your word and try to help contextualize this for you
your first comment was tangentially relevant, even though it seemed like a repackaging of another grievance from elsewhere with a bit added at the end so it technically fit the thread. and even were that the case, that's still totally fine as long you're actually trying to join the conversation, instead of a strategical deployment of a personal pot shot
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Answering you would be pointless.
that is generally something that if said is going to be meant in rudeness. and generally thread derailment is considered not the greatest manners
my brother in christ, i am not telling you not to say things to colin meant in rudeness, but please confine it to when it is situationally appropriate and thread relevant... the best burns always are anyway!
and more generally, everyone does some thread derailment sometimes, but being mindful of that and trying to limit it are forum best practices.
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Hi all, I was going to answer KoaN (thankyou for your respectful post) and leave it at that but will try to sum up acknowledging others' posts.
It was never my intention to derail a thread or stir up strife or subtly make inroads to carry things on from elsewhere. I could've been clearer about the word "general" I guess. To that end: 1/ My post largely resulted from noticing a number of issues repeatedly coming up and the ongoing battles about those issues. That was from not long after I came to NI until the present and 2/ across the whole NI board in general which Ive seen much like one big area without borders. The Mac vs PC thing was used as additonal example only, probably because of it's longevity. It was not to restart anything here. There seems to be quite a few threads either dealing with AS directly or its mentioned in passing in other threads. Even if I did post in it, I still dont know exactly what thread you people are referring to. I've posted here and there recently and its easy to lose track. I cant remember exactly what was said or where.
Yes disagreeing is a part of life. Its all OK if done respectfully.
"So, please, can't we just stop it?"
Id like that as it really sums up why I posted to start with.
I hope that helps.
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