NI not playing on the users side, crippling Traktor, abiding to pointless copyright

24

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  • _Theo_
    _Theo_ Member Posts: 26 Member

    >Now, if the streaming services also had a "licenced to play in public" tier that Traktor (or any other DJ software) could check that'd be different and would pretty much solve the problem of recording streams.

    They state such license does exist in their Terms & Conditions, but they don't provide any info where to get such license and how this work with the streaming T & C. I believe they might refer to the generic license to play that at least in Sweden is regulated by STIM, I think you have ASCAP, BMI and SESAC in the US.

  • _Theo_
    _Theo_ Member Posts: 26 Member
    edited January 2024

    Exactly "How does Traktor know if you've paid or have a license?", is the very reason why having technical limitations as a solution to keep people within the rules and regulations is a bad idea.

    As more or less no technology will be able to fully limit anyone to only use something in a legal way they will always also have to put forward that it is you the user who is responsible to abide to agreements, laws and regulations. If this was not the case then any routing options a user would find would be legal as it is possible to do so.

    By so, the technical implementation will only be a problem and limitation to the law abiding user giving them a bad pointless user experience. Looking upon traktor you are already able to loop part of the stream in a deck, hence you can mix with it, but if suddenly wanting to move it to a remix deck to do exactly the same, you cannot. It simply makes no sense from a user perspective, especially as it is within the terms & conditions usage wise. By so the underlying technical nightmare that might exist underneath to be compliant should not be the users concern and should limit the usage of any bought product.

    When it comes to current streaming services I have a hard time believing any producer would have any problem if someone where to sample part of their song creating a remix to enjoy at home and maybe play to their girl/boyfriend, and what not, privately.

    Then again RIAA would certainly love to sue the life out of any such person if they could get their hands on it... maybe they should join up using _Siri_ or using _Alexa_ to listen in what happens in our homes having a set of lawyers ready to fire at will? ;-)


    All in all, it seems most commenters above do agree upon my main point, an introduction of a stream source should not cripple your software into not being able to use the remix deck on other sources.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,070 Expert

    @zephry

    I don't think ripping CDs was ever legal to do?

    I cannot speak for all countries, copyright law is not universal and differs quite a lot country to country, but in EU it is legal and always has been. One is entitled to the right to make copies for personal use.

    There is even tax on blank CDs/DVDs, printers, HDD/SDD, memory cards, .... generally storage media that goes to entities that distribute royalyties....

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,070 Expert

    @_Theo_

    All in all, it seems most commenters above do agree upon my main point, an introduction of a stream source should not cripple your software into not being able to use the remix deck on other sources.

    Theoretivally you are right. But, we do not know what streaming companies demand from DJ SW. And also do not know internals of Traktor. E.g. how difficult it would be to separate streaming and non streaming decks....

  • mykejb
    mykejb Moderator Posts: 1,836 mod

    What's the point of recording half a set though? Surely if you're mixing in tracks from streaming but you don't record them listening to a recording of only the non-streaming audio doesn't make sense? You'd have gaps everywhere.

    -- Mike

  • _Theo_
    _Theo_ Member Posts: 26 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/121585#Comment_121585

    I very much agree, which is why the current bad implementation makes Traktor crippled if wanting to include streaming sources. In theory the only option for anyone wanting to use Traktor fully along with streaming services of choice, is to use their own browser player, route it into Traktor as an external input and set both players to the same BPM, it's not bullet proof but you can at least use all the features you paid for (except the stream link ironically).

    Is it legal to do so? If you know the innards of Traktor and what happens when pressing the capture button on your F1, you are deliberately breaking the user agreement. However, if you do not know the difference between looping a section of a stream in a deck, compared to looping it in your remix deck, well...

    Then again, if Traktor is acting as a streaming police only allowing you to do what is legal, then the above routing must be pretty legal as it is doable.

    However the answer will always be in the Terms & Conditions, not in what creative way you succeed to use something, hence the pointlessness of a technical limitation.

  • zephry
    zephry Member Posts: 673 Guru

    The best we/ @_Theo_ can hope for is to put in a feature request to enable the Loop Recorder and sampling for decks not containing streamed tracks.

    The other Dj software forums have had similar debates regarding the disabling of the recording as well. I am not sure about sampling though. I am pretty sure Traktor has a bit more advanced sampling with the Remix Decks and Loop recorder. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think you can grab and save samples from tracks in Denon, Serato, or Record box as easily.

    So that is why Beatport insisted on the disabling.

    I really don't see this as a bad deal. If a person wants they can do some extra work and probably have a better Dj set anyway.

  • _Theo_
    _Theo_ Member Posts: 26 Member
    edited January 2024

    I have sent the following questions to both beatport and beatsource for clarification:

    1. Am I allowed to loop part or play from a cue point set in a streamed song and mix it with other tracks?

    2. Am I allowed to set several loops and cue points the track and play them at will?

    3. Am I allowed to cache these loops whilst playing to be able to fire whem at will in a live mix (the song gets cached by default when using compatible DJ software as Traktor, else setting loops, cue points, plaiying in reverse etc would not be doable)?

    4. Am I allowed to use your Beatport app to play the song, route it into my mixer where I can then loop and repeat parts of the song whilst doing a mix?

    5. Am I allowed to route the stream signal through any effects device that makes it possible to add echo delay, replay looped parts, etc in a live session?

    6. Am I allowed to to in beforehand setup of all effects and loops to be used with the streamed song so everything is ready when doing my live session?


    I mean, the above is probably to be expected will happen with songs if given to a DJ wouldn't you say?

    So we need to know...

  • mykejb
    mykejb Moderator Posts: 1,836 mod

    I think the missing questions are "7 - Am I allowed to record a session that contains samples/songs from Beatport/Beatsource" and "Can I do points 1-7 for public performance at live gigs and/or during streaming as part of a public live stream"

    -- Mike

  • _Theo_
    _Theo_ Member Posts: 26 Member

    It's a very valid question. As of now I have gotten no reply from them whatsoever. As soon as they answer (if ever) I will follow up with this one as well.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,070 Expert

    Most probably you may not use it for public performances.

    Unless you (or venue) pay extra royalities.... But that pays for any music, not just streamed one.... Unless it is your own music or opensource one.

  • _Theo_
    _Theo_ Member Posts: 26 Member

    true, you ned a public broadcast license, but this you can buy for your event and can be fairly reasonable depending upon how big your audience are. This can be bought no matter if its streamed, bought or what have you. This is also what these streaming companies refer to in their Terms & Conditions.

  • Kaldosh
    Kaldosh Member Posts: 414 Advisor

    Again it looks they work to get the milk the butter the cream and the money of it. As stated above event creators have to pay fees for public events . Here we spend a huge amount of time to ask playlist for djs list the tracks being played, paying the tax fee for the event and the lists are used to retribute the artists who have been played in public, therefore why would want to introduce a Public broadcast licence to a à dj who already pay a subscription to play track which is then restricted by a software who have absolutely no legal right or authority to regulate this whatsoever. The whole problem comes from bad assimilations which is convenient to charge people more . At the end of the day, any good business succeed, any wrong or too gridy one will fail anyway . Time will tell but that kind of politics won’t bring anything good to anyone and I am scared for those who are going to Lear it the hard way as it is mentally very disturbing. I already know what you’ll think or do with that thought

  • _Theo_
    _Theo_ Member Posts: 26 Member
    edited January 2024

    Don't fall of your chairs, but this is a reply from Marty, representing Native Instruments support, regarding the bug that Traktor cannot as of today distinguish between a deck source being streamed and one that isn't, making the Remix deck unusable as long as the streamed source is present.

    "I'm sorry you disagree with how the product works. If you use the product in a supported manner and workflow, you won't run into these issues."

    I kid you not... 🙄

    The only sane explanation for such an answer must be that Marty is just another AI bot doing its best, because it simply makes no sense whatsoever.

  • lord-carlos
    lord-carlos Member Posts: 3,632 Expert

    I still don't understand how Traktor user would be better of without any streaming service at all.

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