Dynamic Coloured Pads without the Software???

Paully Bee · 2024-11-16T06:15:40+00:00

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I have a KK Keyboard, love it's integration with NI instruments.

Running Logic Pro.

I now also want a pad controller (since the keyboard doesn't have any! Grrr)

I don't want the beat making capabilities or the software necessarily. Hence only keen on the Mikro Mk3. But will likely use it with NI Komplete's drums or Battery.

I cannot tell if the lights will colour properly, or flash when hit, without the Machine software running it. I want all the versatility of the keyboard in the pads.

The only reason I though of buying a NI product for this, over other brands, was for the dynamic colouring of the pads to correspond with all the instruments. But am hearing that it is a brick without the Maschine software.

Cheers,Paul.

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ozon

@D-One explained

it's not just in Live neither, its any DAW that allows advanced control via MIDI, Bitwig also has options for example + Pads can blink from any MIDI Input, theres also mackie emulation, etc

That video was interesting! Now I gotta check what’s possible with the Plus in Cubase 😅

Regarding feedback: I know the Pads can blink, but that’s not what makes Maschine special. Pad colours and text in the display would be the interesting part.

Also when I tried to configure my Mk2 as MIDI controller (which was a couple of years ago), it wasn’t possible to determine the MIDI note each Pad was sending, but I only could set the octave of the C for the first Pad and the other 15 Pads were just chromatic ascending notes. If all of that is possible today, I definitely have to give MIDI mode another chance.

Thanks fot the heads up!

Edit:

Found this video by Jef Gibbons, which includes a couple of interesting hints and workarounds:

https://youtu.be/xiFZ8Y5vOfU?si=hvYGDbauGsNjRS2r

All comments

ozon

It is a brick without the Maschine software.

Using the Controller Editor you can configure certain Maschine models to act as a MIDI controller and send predefined messages on each Pad/Button/Encoder but it’s not possible to change colours or display feedback information AFAIK.

D-One

@ozon It's def not a brick, it works like most generic MIDI Controllers and even has a few more advanced features.

It is possible to change colors and behavior, it can blink when your press it or when it receives MIDI or both, one color per each, lots of options…

But if you're expecting the controller to match any sort of software colors then you're expecting too much, it's technically possible using a LED mode called "Index", where the pad color changes based the velocity it receives…

But production plugins such as Battery don't usually do this because generally you want the velocities you recorded to be spit back, not something in charge of changing color. "Index" is meant for other stuff like DJ SW for example.

But… If you had Ableton Live than colors could indeed match since Ableton has a Remove Control API that can be used in conjunction with Controller Editor templates for advanced feedback. Such as:

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/64/v1-6-1-maschine-plus-mk3-mikro-mk3-ableton-live-11-12-1-midi-remote-script

I dont think theres anything for Logic that is equivalent to the above for Ableton.

I want all the versatility of the keyboard in the pads.

"all" is impossible, generic MIDI Control and Dedicated Control are miles apart unless your DAW has a controller API and theres someone who made something for that API… And even then its much more basic and you rely on whoever developed it.

Paully Bee

Thanks guys. You’ve confirmed my concerns. I think this is a stupid oversight, that NI assumes you only want the hardware with the software, and yet don’t include pads on the keyboard so you buy more their pads. ******?!

The expansion kits available through Komplete really make it seem like they will run seamlessly with the pads.

So, in Logic, would I need to insert an instance of Maschine, then insert Battery in that for the pads to react as expected?

Can I then ignore the Maschine software and record/operate Battery in the Logic space, where normal midi runs it as though Maschine was not in the picture?

It seems a bit backwards, annoying, and processor heavy!

ozon

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/191635#Comment_191635

Yeah, it was a bit of an exaggeration, and I didn’t know about the feedback capabilities in conjunction with Ableton Live.

But it also comes down to personal definitions of brick and generic controller. For me, any controller that cannot be used standalone connected via MIDI to a synth but needs to be hooked up to a computer with specific software to configure and operate it, is considered a brick. I may not have vast experience with a large variety of generic controllers but those few I’ve used were capable of true standalone operation, and offered additional functionality when configured by or used with proprietary software - Novation keyboard (keys, pads, faders, encoders), Roland drum pads, Roli Seaboard Blocks. Maschine controllers (except for the M+ which has its own computer running proprietary software) are not capable of this.

D-One

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/191727#Comment_191727

I know, but I preffer to clarify so random users reading don't get the wrong ideia, it's not just in Live neither, its any DAW that allows advanced control via MIDI, Bitwig also has options for example + Pads can blink from any MIDI Input, theres also mackie emulation, etc… A big portion of Mikro users buy them just to have decent quality Pads for their DAW while having zero interest in Maschine SW. For Standalone/DAWless niche it's a while other conversation.

@Paully Bee
Thanks guys. You’ve confirmed my concerns. I think this is a stupid oversight, that NI assumes you only want the hardware with the software, and yet don’t include pads on the keyboard so you buy more their pads. ******?!

Thats valid, it's a matter of opinion I guess; personally I prefer things separate, specialised and focused, rather than do-it-all all devices, to fully explain it would take forever and require high knowledge of both MAS and KK, I'd just bore everyone. Anyway, theres tons of keyboards out there with Pads, Faders, Knobs, etc… and KK is very much MIDI Mappable so thats an option.

I think you have a bunch of assumptions on how things work or are designed for that need clearing up, I'll try:

The expansion kits available through Komplete really make it seem like they will run seamlessly with the pads.

A portion of Expansions offer only, samples. You lose Patterns, Projects, Presets for Maschine Stuff, all the FX, and the Kit's also have one-shot melodic stuff meant to be played chromatically, something Battery cannot do, etc, etc… Expansions on battery is more of an alternative way to use the Kits only for users who dont own Maschine. If you're cynical like me then you can say they just repurpose kits samples made for Maschine to add value to Battery — you can look this as a good thing, an extra, but it does add some confusion specially for Maschine newbies.

So, in Logic, would I need to insert an instance of Maschine, then insert Battery in that for the pads to react as expected?

I don't know what you consider "react as expected" but no, that would not be the best way to go about it. Battery is it's own Instrument Sampler, Maschine also has its own Sampler to which the Kit's are primarily designed for, if you load the "kit" in Maschine directly you get easy access to each Pad (cell in battery) parameters (tune, start, adsr, filter, etc, etc…) all pre-mapped the same way instruments are pre-mapped for the KKS knobs and screen + Insert FX, MIDI data, etc… This is what makes it feel integrated.

This is hard to explain to a non-Maschine user but the advantage of Expansion Kits is in it's Pad Mode, while Battery requires Keyboard Mode, since Battery is an instrument. So putting Battery inside Maschine-Plug inside a DAW is a lot of inception and pissibly you'd need to configure how those 3 things talk to each other.

Can I then ignore the Maschine software and record/operate Battery in the Logic space, where normal midi runs it as though Maschine was not in the picture?

Of course, that's what Battery is made for, to be used in a DAW like any other normal Plugin, it has no especial relation with Maschine whatsoever, if anything it's actually annoying to use it in Maschine, simple MIDi-Mode to Battery-Plug is the easy simple approach.

Now if you just load the Maschine plugin, and load the Maschine Kits directly (skipping Battery) you then have more advanced control, feedback, parameter mapping, etc… But then you can't record directly to Logic via the controller, you have to use MIDI Mode (This is a Logic only problem, no MIDI out from MAS-PLug, i all other DAW's it's possible)

Conclusion: If you just want to bang on Pads to record MIDI that goes to DAW and Battery just skip Maschine… Use it in MIDI Mode.

Paully Bee

Thanks for you input. It is very unfortunate the pads don’t operate as freely and the keyboard, and are integrated into the software.
I imagine Battery is a relic and they’re not overly supporting it and concentrating on Maschine as a standalone replacement.
Annoying for Battery users who don’t need all the hands on live performance capabilities Maschine provides.
I might still get the Mikro but am unhappy I need to manually input the colours for every damn Battery kit. And what, have a preset scheme in Controller Editor for every damn kit. ?
That sucks coz quite often I’d want to shuffle items around.

Ggggrrrrrrrrr. Where is the promised glory that their ads make out?!

Cheers for the input.

Paul.

ozon

@D-One explained

it's not just in Live neither, its any DAW that allows advanced control via MIDI, Bitwig also has options for example + Pads can blink from any MIDI Input, theres also mackie emulation, etc

That video was interesting! Now I gotta check what’s possible with the Plus in Cubase 😅

Regarding feedback: I know the Pads can blink, but that’s not what makes Maschine special. Pad colours and text in the display would be the interesting part.

Thanks fot the heads up!

Edit:

Found this video by Jef Gibbons, which includes a couple of interesting hints and workarounds:

https://youtu.be/xiFZ8Y5vOfU?si=hvYGDbauGsNjRS2r

D-One

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/191846#Comment_191846

Its more than just blink in that case, the DAW can tell the HW: "hey, if X instrument is loaded make the Pad Red and blink, but if instrument Y is loaded make it blue" if it has a remote surface api of some sort + if the DAW has a Sampler Pad like thing then colors can match, text unfortunately only works with Mackie emulation and for parameter, track names, send names, etc… NI does not grant access to screens or has any sort of public API for it.

Yes, that video explains some of what is possible, Cubase introduced that in v12, i think it has evolved more now. 3RD party scripts for Ableton allow all sorts of fancy things, more advanced than Cubase i think.

As for Logic, I don't think they have 3rd party control surface support, all I see is from the actual manufactures and NI/Apple havent done anything fancy yet outside of Mackie control, I doubt they ever will. NI's interrest in this sort of thing seems to have diminished since the MM3 and M+ which has the least options available, less than the MK3 for some odd reason.

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