What is Maschine 3.0 for?
I've been playing with Maschine 3.0 for a while now and I'm bothered by one thing.
What is Maschine 3.0 for?
Originally the purpose of the Maschine software was simple. It was the software you needed in order for your Maschine hardware to actually work as something that wasn't simply a midi controller.
And, for me at least, the objective of the software was that it was intended to be used by the hardware and not really by a mouse and keyboard.
And that's great. And you can see the ultimate expression of this in the Maschine +, where the software is integrated and you don't need a computer to use the Maschine +.
However, Maschine 3.0 seems to introduce a whole set of functions that don't seem to be controllable from the hardware unit. I can't find a way to use any of the new midi functionality to edit patterns for instance. And Maschine 3.0 seems to be introducing a whole load of other elements that seem far more designed to be used onscreen by a mouse and keyboard than by the actual controllers it was originally made for.
So is the direction of travel that Maschine The Software is trying to become something that exists beyond the restrictions of the hardware rather than something that exclusively enables the hardware to function?
Will it start to have some purpose that exists away from the hardware?
Will NI spend its time trying to make Maschine The Software more like a cut down, limbless version of Ableton at the expense of deepening the things the hardware allows us to do?
Comments
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I'm wondering if there is some future proofing and foreshadowing going on here? Although we are told there is not a Maschine 4 hardware unit/range on the immediate horizon, obviously there will be at some point (or equivalent type of next gen hardware), and I am sure this release is laying some of the groundwork for that. As you say the new MIDI editing tools are clearly meant to be used at the moment with a mouse, but in a future 'Mas4' I could see them also being accessible through a touch screen, so this may be a hint in that direction?
2 -
I've been reading the forum since Maschine was released, and I'm bothered by one thing. 😁
People heaping criticism on absolutely anything and everything, no matter how small or insignificant. Even people coming out of the woodwork, having never posted before, just to moan about something and say they're "jumping ship" (but then they stick around anyway and moan some more).
Seriously, you're complaining that the software now has more functionality than it did before? 🤔
As a Maschine+ owner, I often use the software without the hardware as A) it lives in another room and B) I bought it because it's standalone, not because I wanted to have it connected all the time.
Anyway, it makes sense to me logically that the new stuff would be added to the software first, then the hardware updated later if required.
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That's a totally understandable view.
But as someone who uses the Maschine software because that's what enables the Maschine hardware, and who has seen the Maschine software as a means to using the hardware, having a bunch of features being introduced to the software that aren't controllable at all by the hardware is a bit concerning.
Why? Because of two things. First, if Maschine software is simply the way to use the Maschine hardware, then it points to either a lack of coherent development (the functionality is coming but couldn't be delivered before launch, which seems unlikely) or a pointer that even the latest hardware is on the edge of being discontinued. Neither of these is a good thought.
Or, second, that NI really do want the Maschine software to move beyond their hardware and become something more. And that they're going to pump their resources and money into this rather than improving the Maschine hardware/software combination. This would create a very different vision for the Maschine software, which doesn't really benefit anyone using the hardware.I see no role in my music production process for Maschine to become a DAW or some kind of complex 'I do everything badly bundle with a bit of Isotope AI gimmickry thrown in' thing. I absolutely don't need that.
I'd like the entire focus to be on how to enable the hardware to let me produce the best music.
4 -
….and yet here we have someone who wants to use the mouse:
Presumably people have been asking for better/more mouse control, so that's why it's been added.
1 -
I wouldn't read too much into it. Maschine desktop is orders of magnitude more popular than M+ standalone, so it will always get new features before the standalone version. Additionally, while these new MIDI tools might not (yet?) be accessible from the controller, this is nothing new, we still cannot edit modulation / automation graphically on the controller, in addition to this, there are probably some other functions like this I forgot to mention.. they have always been there.
What might happen though, is that Maschine will become more "controller agnostic" to use over time.. meaning that as long as you're using a "current" NI made controller, you will have access to most of the essential functions of Maschine at your disposal. Kontrol keyboard series MKIII products come to mind here, as an example..
1 -
Different strokes for different folks?
I want my hardware to be kept simple and not bloated with a ton of 💩… every addition needs to be very well thought out because it takes “space” there’s already some stuff that imo aren’t needed or get in the way, half finished stuff, etc… but will probably never be removed because people already got used to them… MPC had this issue since forever, it changed a bit now with their v3 too.
With that said I also want a decent piano roll + mouse features, etc… because well… I have a mouse a keyboard and a big screen, focusing on the HW for me does not = that I have to ignore other tools.
Also, not everyone has an Mk3/M+, there’s only so much you can fit in a smaller controller ..6 -
Actually this (more Keyboard and mouse features) was one of the many wishes the community had (like bounce in place altough you already could drag and drop a Midiloop as audio to another slot)
Many users start a project with the Controller, but then like to work just in the software, because this sometimes is faster, with a nice big Screen.
It needed to be more "standalone" for the integration of the Kontrol S MK3 keyboards.
But if you stay in the Maschineworld, the combination of the HW and the SW offer a very nice workflow.
Even if not all functions are available on the HW, there will be updates that to the driver wich will include most of them.2 -
I would acknowledge the following:
Despite Maschine 2 having been updated 4-5 times a year since launch 12 years ago, with new features and support and maintenance, this isn't enough for some users.
Why? Because those users have asked for specific things we did not do.
Why didn't we do them? Because we have a very long and divergent list of user requests.
Why? Because as Maschine grew and matured, it acquired a great many users each with very different workflows and expectations to the next. And those users care deeply, and bring forth their opinions with great passion.
So I'm proud of what we've built here - and I know that many users will be happy with it.
But there are many other users who want what they want, and want it yesterday. If you request something, and it doesn't happen, you can understand the feeling of abandonment. Even if the answer was "it was more important to focus on x for y reasons for z people" that doesn't suffice.
If the release is valuable to many, and they upgrade, and continue to make requests → all good.
If the release isn't valuable to some, and they continue to make requests → this is OK too.
5 -
It was one of the main requests. Particularly from the Maschine-as-a-DAW type crowd, who may not be our main audience (most use it in parallel with a DAW) but still matter greatly. And the feature request is useful to all, so win win.
4 -
In some cases, you simply run out of buttons and screens → and the discussion becomes removing something else users have muscle memory over, to instead implement this.
However, I think some of the requests are reasonable and could be addressed from hardware down the line.
6 -
Sure, I'll bite. Stem Separation isn't iZotope gimmickery, it's one of the most request features for people who Sample.
I can share my view on things: Maschine is better together. It is neither software only, nor hardware only, but best experienced when the two combine, and tightly integrate. I don't think that this means every function need be replicated on both, but I would love to hear which of the new features you'd like to see controllable from hardware that aren't, and any suggestions as to how.
6 -
Thanks for the responses.
I'm glad the stem separation is here, but in order for it to really be useful (in a way that everyone else's stem separation isn't, I'd have added both a key detection function and, rather than just placing the stems in a new Group, I'd have added a pattern to the group so I could immediately hear the stems, that way they'd be far more useful and intuitive). Make Maschine's stem separation better and more useful than anyone else's rather than just porting in the Izotope Rx version. Because this year we've had stem separation flung at us by every DAW out there except maybe Ableton. Make this the one I want to use.
I fully understand the breadth of the Maschine userbase and the wide range of desires they have. And the notion of having to choose which requirements to satisfy first and what the low hanging fruit is.
I still feel that NI doesn't have a clear idea of what Maschine actually is. Is it a fantastic midi instrument that has software that runs it but needs external programmes to enable us to fulfil our musical dreams? Is it a 'not quite there yet' DAW with some expensive hardware attached?
I'm very much in the former camp, for me Maschine is an instrument that I can use to create great music in any style I want, (but which I need to integrate with a DAW to finalise my projects). At its most creative, it's something I play and once I've finished playing, I'll do the final elements of editing somewhere else.
So to me, the Maschine software serves the hardware. And any functionality that doesn't, or that I can't do from the hardware at least as easily as I could with a keyboard and mouse, is dubious. So lots of options for midi editing is great, not being able to do them with the hardware isn't. Implemented correctly, Maschine users would be able to choose where they wanted to do the midi editing.
So something like Bouncing has been done well. I can choose to do it from the hardware if I'm in a creative mood, or onscreen if I've got a more editorial head on. My choice.
My concern, as articulated by this thread is that it feels very much like NI's vision is for Maschine software to exist outside of the Maschine hardware as something that is designed to fulfil a function that isn't 'controlling a Maschine'. The blurb on the Maschine 3 page of the site is full of mentions that this is 'hardware independent' software that does its stuff without any need for a controller. And that feels like a strange road to be going down. Because I really don't need another DAW.
My no 1 'easy to implement' feature request right now would be to be able to use my Maschine to pin 3rd party plugins, because that would be really helpful. I'll be using that functionality a billion times more often than stem separation. I'd modify the Plug-in + Shift Button Left side screen so it went Edit, Pin, Insert, Save. (although I imagine this might break some of the design/functionality guidelines).
Oh and some easy way to bulk switch between Audio Mute on and Audio Mute off, so I didn't have to change it on every single pad. You could put that into Audio Settings somewhere and then I could choose to change it on an individual basis at the Sound level if I needed.
Thanks for listening
3 -
You've hit the nail on the head in a lot of ways.
I'm very much in the former camp, for me Maschine is an instrument that I can use to create great music in any style I want, (but which I need to integrate with a DAW to finalise my projects). At its most creative, it's something I play and once I've finished playing, I'll do the final elements of editing somewhere else.
^^^ This is what Maschine was originally intended as. At some point in the past, it took a turn into DAW-lite world, and by focusing there, broadened (defocused?) the user base. Now we contend with both and everywhere in between. But, I will say that with both Maschine, Kontakt Leap, and any future plans, we intend to focus as much as we can on the camp you described, generating ideas.
My no 1 'easy to implement' feature request right now would be to be able to use my Maschine to pin 3rd party plugins, because that would be really helpful. I'll be using that functionality a billion times more often than stem separation. I'd modify the Plug-in + Shift Button Left side screen so it went Edit, Pin, Insert, Save. (although I imagine this might break some of the design/functionality guidelines).
This is a great suggestion! I'll bring it to the designers.
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You are very welcome. I was part of the Beta programme and really appreciated both the opportunity to contribute to that and the challenges faced by the development team.
I'm not saying I am right, that's why this thread is a question. But I think there has always been a level of ambiguity in terms of what Maschine (both the hardware and the software) is for and what it intends to be. And that a clear(er) vision for Maschine would be a good thing.1 -
At some point in the past, it took a turn into DAW-lite world, and by focusing there, broadened (defocused?) the user base.
"You've hit the nail on the head in a lot of ways." since I don't have a Maschine but after having tried the Maschine 2 Essentials software then I most certainly would like to have the "Maschine 3 Bundle" to play around with also 🙂
So while I do understand why the OP would ask the question then I still think that @Matthew_NI hit the nail on the head here because I have played around a little with the Maschine software having no Maschine and also wants to do so a lot more for it's 'DAW light ability'.
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