VST3 support - how is it going?

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  • Monochrome
    Monochrome Member Posts: 801 Expert
    edited June 2022

    Slowly but surely, NI plugs are getting that VST3 treatment. Nice.

    (The Changes list is longer, but I only wanted to highlight that important bit.)

  • ShelLuser
    ShelLuser Member Posts: 225 Pro

    I really hope NI aren't going to fall for that potential CLAP scam, because from my POV that's all it is: a lot of buzz words, shown failure on basic features (don't use any undo features when using CLAP because....) and most of all: potential abuse of open source efforts.

    See, U-HE & Bitwig are all too eager to tell you that this is going to be FREE because "open source". But 'open source' is utterly meaningless without knowing what kind of license is in effect. You can easily share your source code and demand that others don't use it (or actually sue 'm over it, has happened before).

    Yeah, lo and behold: the CLAP project is using none other than the MIT license: the one license with a history of companies screwing over willing developers by "open sourcing" their project, letting people work on it for free and once the required results were met they closed it up, relicensed it and "thanks for all the fish".

    Unlike copyleft software licenses, the MIT License also permits reuse within proprietary software, provided that all copies of the software or its substantial portions include a copy of the terms of the MIT License and also a copyright notice.[9][11]

    Convenient, isn't it?

    And let's not forget that U-HE has a team of (paid) developers on staff. Who were seemingly unable to implement basic features like undo options for their new public project. But something tells me that the very moment a useful milestone is reached then things get closed up, re-licensed and people will be thanked for all the fish.

    This isn't a charity you guys, this is a company trying to start up a profitable project. By (ab)using free labor to get it done.

    I have no lost for this display of disrespect, that's for sure. And I call it disrespectful because the one thing open source has tried to overcome for a long time now is the association with "open source" equaling "free":

    And since it's open source and liberally licensed, CLAP is a safe bet for the future.

    This is a plain out lie, just so you know.

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Member Posts: 2,097 Expert

    All I have to say is if Komplete Kontrol is not updated to support VST3 from 3rd party VSTs, i'm completely throwing in the towel on this product line and will withdraw all my past work from the last 7 years as 90% of the stuff I use with Komplete Kontrol is not, and will never be officially NKS.

    Hope this is not what is being hinted here

  • Reefius
    Reefius Member Posts: 192 Pro
    edited June 2022

    Everything is better than one company (Steinberg) having full control over licensing and dictating the terms.

    NI is no better in that regard, they deliberately cripple third party plugins to try to sell their own. For example: it is not possible to pin third party plugins in Maschine software so they always stay visible. Only NI plugins can be pinned.

    The same with VST3, only NI VST3's can be used in Maschine and Komplete Kontrol, again for the same reason: trying to push users into buying only NI plugins.

    And don't get me started about the JAM disaster, where they promised a proper song mode and then just abandoned the JAM completely.

    It's very obvious the bean counters are in charge at NI.

  • tempsperdu
    tempsperdu Member Posts: 151 Pro

    Convenient, isn't it?

    And let's not forget that U-HE has a team of (paid) developers on staff. Who were seemingly unable to implement basic features like undo options for their new public project. But something tells me that the very moment a useful milestone is reached then things get closed up, re-licensed and people will be thanked for all the fish.

    This isn't a charity you guys, this is a company trying to start up a profitable project. By (ab)using free labor to get it done.

    I have no lost for this display of disrespect, that's for sure. And I call it disrespectful because the one thing open source has tried to overcome for a long time now is the association with "open source" equaling "free":

    And since it's open source and liberally licensed, CLAP is a safe bet for the future.

    This is a plain out lie, just so you know

    Urs is over at this post on KVR, might be interesting to voice your concerns directly to him.

    https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8453193#p8453193

  • EvilDragon
    EvilDragon Moderator Posts: 946 mod
    edited June 2022

    MIT license is not a scam. It IS a liberal, non-contagious open source license (as opposed to something like GPL3).


    As if you're completely unaware of what sort of track record u-he has in our industry? They're one of the most highly esteemed developers. Why do you think they would want to screw anyone over? That's Steinberg's job. The whole point behind CLAP is to NOT close things up and have open and transparent governance over the format, and you conveniently missed it for who knows what reason. This time you're wrong, ShelLuser. Well done, you've lost my respect here.


    (Oh and by the way, the undo bug has nothing to do with CLAP format itself, it's a bug in the u-he framework side of things, this is a public beta they're running and bugs are to be expected, it's getting fixed for release. Just so you know.)


    (Oh, and one more thing. CLAP was not started by u-he at all, they are just supporting the initiative. CLAP is chiefly work of one Alexandre Bique, who started working on it by himself in 2014, then went on to work for Bitwig where he is still today. He got help along the way from both closed and open source developers, and they're all in it together. Better inform yourself before spouting utter nonsense. Profitable project? No, there are no financial strings attached if a developer wants to use the CLAP format. Not sure where you got that from - but you're wrong.)

  • EvilDragon
    EvilDragon Moderator Posts: 946 mod

    And for more detail on why exactly you're completely wrong: https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8455339#p8455339

  • basehead617
    basehead617 Member Posts: 98 Advisor

    Sorry, CLAP just sounds like marketing for Bitwig.. until it has wide support in all the major DAWs it’s a footnote..

  • Vagus
    Vagus Member Posts: 220 Pro
    edited June 2022

    If it were marketing for Bitwig, it wouldn't have support from an excellent list of companies, designers and engineers. And I think you're missing the point - while it would be beneficial to have support from all DAWs as a native standard, it doesn't need that to be successful - CLAP can by run inside a wrapper.

    CLAP as a standard, sounds promising, and consider the issues NI has experienced with both compatibility for M1 and the huge issue it's had with VST3, extending its arms to include CLAP would help massively as a long-term bet, with a lot less effort than it is currently having to exert to deal with every apple changes, or what Steinberg decides.

  • Flexi
    Flexi Member Posts: 366 Pro

    Isn't CLAP supposed to be true code once, compile everywhere?

    JS in Reaper is currently king for this, but it is interpreted obviously, but it is a godsend if you cross platforms with your work.

  • Flexi
    Flexi Member Posts: 366 Pro
    edited June 2022

    Surge team is already on board too, right?

    For anyone, that says no nonsense, non scam, right there, you guys are tight, not only on the development side of things, but also the licencing side of things too, to the nth degree.

  • EvilDragon
    EvilDragon Moderator Posts: 946 mod

    Yep, Surge Synth Team is not only on board, baconpaul helped in development of CLAP in the past year as well.

  • EvilDragon
    EvilDragon Moderator Posts: 946 mod

    AVID, Presonus and Image-Line are on board. Those are pretty major names, wouldn't you say?

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,453 Expert

    Generally speaking, it is always good to have source code of libraries used. One is not dependent on bugfixes from producers and one can debug code of library, if needed.

    For example I have experienced stupid bug in Microsoft core library that came with their C++ compiler. My program randomly crashed and it took several days to find out that procedure for printing real numbers writes behind allocated memory.... Without having access to MS source code, it would be very hard to locate source of problems....

    So, open source CLAP might be the step in right direction. Still, hard to say if it succeedes...

  • EvilDragon
    EvilDragon Moderator Posts: 946 mod

    CLAP being open source doesn't mean every CLAP plugin you'd get would also come with source code (because it's MIT not GPL3).

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