Stuck with KONTROL S88 MK3 Updater ... conflicting instructions??

Rob Ainscough · 2024-06-08T03:35:10+00:00

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I went to install the latest firmware (1.5.7) over my current firmware (0.2.9) and started the process …

The Keyboard shows me a message "Do not disconnect the power supply or turn off your keyboard" … and there is a stream of following lights going back and forth.

However, the updater software comes back with an error "Your KONTROL S MK3 failed to boot into Firmware update mode and could not be properly updated. To boot your KONTROL S MK3 into firmware update mode, please power-cycle it and click RETRY"

As you can see, I have two directly conflicting message on what I should do??

Any suggestions? This is not a great start to NI .. I'm new to NI hardware.

Rob.

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Rob Ainscough

I decided to give this ONE more try and was actually successful.

The solution (for Windows 11):

Make sure ALL other USB devices are unplugged (except your mouse and keyboard)
Per NI KB docs, be sure to disable USB suspend mode.
Load Windows Device Manager.
Buy a USB-C power supply or USB-C powered hub (and plug power to home power outlet 110v/120v:
Plug USB-C male to USB-C into one of the 10Gbps USB-C ports in Hub above and hit button to power on the port and plug the other end into the KONTROL USB-C power ONLY port.
Plug the USB-C male to USC-C male cable that comes with KONTROL into a USB-C female to USB-A male adapter:
Plug USB-A male into Powered USB Hub (above Rosonway) USB-A port and press the button on hub to power on that port.
Plug USB Hub (above Rosonway) USB-A male main to a USB-A female on PC.
Power on the KONTROL S88 MK3 and ignore whatever message is presented.
Run the MSMK3Updater.exe from folder location that isn't under Win11 special permissions … i.e. just create a folder C:\NI where you will have a copy of MSMK3Updater.exe (make sure your account is Admin)
It should find your KONTROL S88 MK3 firmware version, doesn't matter what version it finds 0.0.1 to 0.2.9 or whatever is older than most recent.
Click update button in Firmware updater (MSMK3Updater.exe)
If you get the red/pink box after about 60 seconds that says there is an error and you hear that a USB device disconnect (this is the KONTROL S88 MK3 disconnecting) and is no longer shown in Device Manager under "Universal Seral Bus Devices" but hear the sound of USB device reconnecting … the KONTROL S88 MK3 will now show up under "Other Devices" with an exclamation point (this is a KEY step not mentioned anywhere). You need to follow the KB docs and manually install the drivers for the Other Devices listing for the KONTROL S88 MK3:
For whatever reason the latest Win11 KONTROL S88 MK3 drivers originally listed do not work and you have to manually install per KB doc (linked above).
If you don't get a red/pink box error and you get the yellow box indicating it's updating with a circle wheel, then wait … and wait … and wait … on my computer it took 3 hours to complete the firmware update (if you're 0.0.1 firmware unit then you'll see NOTHING other than the "Something went wrong error" on the display, just wait it out, unit will reboot after 3 hours or so and you'll get the updating message).
Once it's completed you should be at the Default Midi setup on the KONTROL S88 MK3. Now you can power down PC and reconnect all you existing USB devices.
Power back on and go test in your DAW software(s).

Unfortunately this forum is preventing me from posting links? Soooo, you'll need to search amazon for the Rosonway 7-port USB 3.2 / USB-C powered hub and for the USB-C female to USB-A male adapters and for the article link to NI KB on has to manually install the NI drivers.

If this process seems insane, it is … you are not alone. If NI want to sell more devices, they will NEED to change this process.

Rob.

All comments

Rob Ainscough

FYI … I have read both of these articles:

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/14229160390045-Kontrol-S-Series-MK3-Troubleshooting-Firmware-Update-Issues

and

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/16567321051805-How-Can-I-Update-the-Driver-and-Firmware-of-My-Kontrol-S88-MK3-on-Windows

I've tried everything suggested with only exception being that I don't have a Mac available. I'm not happy that I bought a separate USB-C power supply and then a USB-C female to USB-A male adapter and still had the exact same problem.

The two KONTROL MK3 show up in Win11 Device Manager with latest drivers.

This is pretty frustrating as I've update plenty of other devices that are USB-C (MOTU, KORG, etc.).

Unless this gets resolved in the next 2 days, I'm about to get an RMA from Sweetwater and look for an alternative MIDI only keyboard. This update process feels like just a bad choice … heck even Arduino's are easier to update than this mess of a process.

Rob.

Erwinew

I had the same frustration with a brand new S88 MK III and also considered to send it back to the webshop. However, this forum is full of identical issues and I was able to fix:

Install latest Windows updates is very important (In my case Windows 10)
Follow https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/16567321051805-How-Can-I-Update-the-Driver-and-Firmware-of-My-Kontrol-S88-MK3-on-Windows
Power adapter: 15W Raspberry Pi USB-C works fine (not included for this price!)
USB A to C cable (not included for this price!)
- Note: This is a USB 2.0 data cable and is not described in the product user manuals!

Success.

Rob Ainscough

I'm going to return the unit to Sweetwater. Like I said, I tried everything listed in those articles I linked above.

Tried a J5create USB-C power supply (well beyond min spec).

I've validated the power is correct via a USB-C and A tester.

I've tried the USB-C female to USB-A male adapter.

I've tried different USB-C ports and USB-A ports on the PC.

I've tried two different USB-C hubs (Belkin and Rosonway both powered).

I've checked driver updates and selected from list (as described).

I've disable USB suspend (as described).

I've removed ALL other USB devices.

I've ran Windows Updates for Advanced Options.

I've submitted a request for support but have not received an answer.

I tried to get a representative via online support chat, not available.

Rebooting my PC multiple times.

When I try to run the Firmware update, I hear it disconnect the device (OS makes a sound) and I see it remove the device from device manager?!

This is CLEARLY a bug in their updater tool … how is it going to communicate with the device when the updater tool removes it from device manager? Just not possible period.

I don't see any other option than to return the unit and look to some other company for a MIDI keyboard. To say I'm disappointed and frustrated is an understatement … I had thought engineers from Germany would be more technically competent on a $1300 US product that is data only, but that doesn't seem to be the case given the number of users that have this exact same problem. One would think they would recognize they have a serious issue (this is the MK3 afterall).

DisconnectsUSB.jpg

USBSuspendDisabled.jpg

ValidatedUSBConnection.jpg

VerifiedVoltage.jpg

Rob Ainscough

I decided to give this ONE more try and was actually successful.

The solution (for Windows 11):

Make sure ALL other USB devices are unplugged (except your mouse and keyboard)
Per NI KB docs, be sure to disable USB suspend mode.
Load Windows Device Manager.
Buy a USB-C power supply or USB-C powered hub (and plug power to home power outlet 110v/120v:
Plug USB-C male to USB-C into one of the 10Gbps USB-C ports in Hub above and hit button to power on the port and plug the other end into the KONTROL USB-C power ONLY port.
Plug the USB-C male to USC-C male cable that comes with KONTROL into a USB-C female to USB-A male adapter:
Plug USB-A male into Powered USB Hub (above Rosonway) USB-A port and press the button on hub to power on that port.
Plug USB Hub (above Rosonway) USB-A male main to a USB-A female on PC.
Power on the KONTROL S88 MK3 and ignore whatever message is presented.
Run the MSMK3Updater.exe from folder location that isn't under Win11 special permissions … i.e. just create a folder C:\NI where you will have a copy of MSMK3Updater.exe (make sure your account is Admin)
It should find your KONTROL S88 MK3 firmware version, doesn't matter what version it finds 0.0.1 to 0.2.9 or whatever is older than most recent.
Click update button in Firmware updater (MSMK3Updater.exe)
If you get the red/pink box after about 60 seconds that says there is an error and you hear that a USB device disconnect (this is the KONTROL S88 MK3 disconnecting) and is no longer shown in Device Manager under "Universal Seral Bus Devices" but hear the sound of USB device reconnecting … the KONTROL S88 MK3 will now show up under "Other Devices" with an exclamation point (this is a KEY step not mentioned anywhere). You need to follow the KB docs and manually install the drivers for the Other Devices listing for the KONTROL S88 MK3:
For whatever reason the latest Win11 KONTROL S88 MK3 drivers originally listed do not work and you have to manually install per KB doc (linked above).
If you don't get a red/pink box error and you get the yellow box indicating it's updating with a circle wheel, then wait … and wait … and wait … on my computer it took 3 hours to complete the firmware update (if you're 0.0.1 firmware unit then you'll see NOTHING other than the "Something went wrong error" on the display, just wait it out, unit will reboot after 3 hours or so and you'll get the updating message).
Once it's completed you should be at the Default Midi setup on the KONTROL S88 MK3. Now you can power down PC and reconnect all you existing USB devices.
Power back on and go test in your DAW software(s).

If this process seems insane, it is … you are not alone. If NI want to sell more devices, they will NEED to change this process.

Rob.

Erwinew

@Rob Ainscough Good to hear that you found a solution and got it up and running.

I remember that the update process was very slow and also changed USB power saving settings / Windows updates.

Note: I use a 4 meter long high quality 2.0 USB cable type C to A in a USB 2.0 (480Mbps) port which works fine. It is just MIDI over USB which does not require 10Gbps bandwidth. A USB-C power supply connected to the keyboard is required.

Native instruments does not realize the impact of omitting a tested power supply and useful USB cable. USB-C port is still not standard available on all computers. It saves max 20 Euros in total cost, but results in a huge amount customer frustration and additional support. You'll find this in every review and is one of the reasons why customers don't give 5 stars, including this firmware update. Don't forget the frustration about dropping Mk I support unexpectedly (see this forum). Will see how long Mk III will be supported…

My next problem: Getting support from Native Instruments when a software bug is found, confirmed and waiting for >6 months on an update for known and confirmed bugs.

When people ask me: "Do you recommend Native Instruments?" Then I clearly explain this.

Rob Ainscough

After this experience, this will be my first and last product from them. One might expect these types of issues from a $300 product but NOT a $1300 product.

But I’ll take the responsibility for not doing enough research prior to purchase … I saw Cubase support and that triggered my purchase … never again!

DunedinDragon

Quite frankly that was the most demanding part of getting my S88mk3 working when I got it in January. Fortunately I was a bit more prepared having read the guidance posted on this forum ahead of time, but it was still fairly painful. I was a little more prepared for providing the power as I had a Furman power supply and a spare Samsung charger from a tablet that allowed me to power the unit to this day. So I just needed a simple, but better, USB cable for the keyboard functions alone.

But if it helps that was the worst of things. Everything else went very well even through all of the software updates of Native Access, Kontakt and Komplete Kontrol and it's all working quite well for me and is a key component in my everyday studio work.

There are still some improvements coming in the next software release I'm looking forward to, but that's all a part of this new infrastructure and design incorporated in this keyboard, so I have to expect such things.

Rob Ainscough

I'll keep an open mind, perhaps if this KONTROL MK3 really does well with my Cubase install, I'll recover some lost trust in this company.

On a side note, the weighted keys are Ok, a little springy for my taste and don't feel as good as my KORG Pa5X 88.

Erwinew

I'm still pushing Native Instruments to get one single critical bug fixed in Komplete Kontrol reported in November 2023, still no answer:

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/18432/using-komplete-kontrol-causing-my-daw-reaper-to-freeze-every-5-minutes

Rob Ainscough

If anyone is interested, NI support did get back to me and their response was not useful/helpful … very much generic. They said I needed to run Windows Update … of course I had already done that and there was NO new driver or anything related to NI.

I even pointed them to this thread to show them the issue and how I resolved it. I honestly have no idea why NI even bother spending any money on support … I'm sure it's outsourced based on the scripted response on how much they really care about me.

Rob.

Erwinew

NI even bother spending any money on support …

Email / forum support can only forward customer bugs to the developers, point back to this forum, then sit back and relax. Instead, NI support engineers should give customers the feeling to help and finding a solution to keep customers satisfied instead of running away.

Here is an example: This critical bug makes Komplete Kontrol completely useless in REAPER and there is no vision if this will be ever resolved:

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/18432/using-komplete-kontrol-causing-my-daw-reaper-to-freeze-every-5-minutes

The reproducible screen capture below clearly shows the instability of Komplete Kontrol in a matter of seconds and the urgency why customers need a solution in order to start using Mk3, but did not get any attention by NI so far:

In the mean time I started to warn other customers via forums / review sites what they can expect when buying a MK3 and using REAPER as there was 7 months to fix this bug in Komplete Kontrol without any progress or help from support which is not acceptable.

BIF

For future reference, there are a number of people you can do a "callout" here in the forum, especially if you have opened a ticket and have not heard anything in a week…or if you are getting only "generic" replies from the support person working on your ticket.

Jeremy and Matthew have been providing excellent support here in the forums; more than we ever got when NI was only supported by the team in Germany.

PoorFellow and Mykejb are not NI employees. They are super patient and helpful guys though, and they very often provide links to helpful articles and posts for those problems that kind of happen on a repeated basis (and have an article written on how to fix, workaround, etc.

=======================================

And as a public service announcement, I'll just repeat here that much of the NI development team (on the Komplete Kontrol side, that is) is fully allocated to the project to implement MIDI Templates into KK Version 3.

They don't tell us everything of course, especially not those of us who aren't on the Beta team, but reading between the lines, I am convinced that this project has required them to temporarily pull team members from other NI projects. If my hunch is correct, that may help the dev team push out the MIDI Templates feature sooner, but probably at the cost of other things happening more slowly.

Anyhow, based on Matthew's recent writings, I believe that MIDI Templates either has gone to the Beta team this past week, or will go to them sometime very soon. Depending on how long the Beta team has it, and how many bugs are found/fixed, it could be a few more weeks before a candidate release is generated, and some days more before we end-users will get the GA (Generally Available) release of KK.

I look forward to getting the MIDI Templates implementation of KK for three reasons.

I've never used it before in older versions of Komplete Kontrol, so I'm curious if it might be helpful to me.
I really want to see it implemented for our power users. In my opinion, it never should have been omitted from KK3, because that has taken our power users completely out of the game and almost out of the community too. That's a terrible loss of braintrust and skillsets. We need to re-connect our power users, and to do that, we need to have some of the older features re-added to KK.
When it's finally released, the dev teams will (hopefully) be able to get back to their normal working rhythms on their normal teams, and we can all get back to a more frequent release cycle of KK updates (and possibly other products too).

Prior to this MIDI Implementation work, we were getting "mostly monthly" updates of KK, and I look forward to a return to that. End-users are not built to wait multiple months for an update, even if that is entirely a reasonable release interval for all the complexity being dealt with.

Have a nice weekend all!

Rob Ainscough

I certainly appreciate volunteers willing to help, I've been in that position myself (moderator/admin) for other companies (much larger than Soundwide/NI) community forums. It can be a difficult job especially when you know the product has issues and users have valid complaints.

Unfortunately, I suspect much of these issues are related to this:

"In January 2023, Soundwide laid off 8% of its workforce, citing "challenging market conditions" as the reason. In June of the same year, the Soundwide name was retired and substituted with Native Instruments' own branding, citing familiarity concerns as what lead to the change."

Being a software engineer for decades and now software engineering manager, I can attest to the difficulties of limited resources and inappropriate allocation of funds. It's rare to encounter a funded project where the initial budget has not doubled or tripled.

NKS is a great idea and they seem to have managed to get some momentum in the various DAW software markets. I hope they proceed with extreme caution if they plan to use AI music creation (this turn out to be a horrible company ending plan for Adobe).

500 employees and 80M Euro revenue doesn't sound viable to be honest. Rule of thumb is $50M US revenue for 100 employees. I hope they can figure out a sustainable plan, sometimes one has to take a step backwards in order to make two steps forward.

Cheers, Rob.

PoorFellow

NKS is a great idea and they seem to have managed to get some momentum in the various DAW software markets.

I am sure that NKS is a cornerstone separating N.I. from a lot of companies that together with users/people outside of N.I.'s ability to make Kontakt libraries is what made the capital investment company invest in the first place. Part of the NKS is the keyboards ability to browse sounds on keyboard which also makes N.I. stand out. And it all helps generate revenue also through licensing that has the potential to generate a lot more - if N.I.'s plans pans out the way N.I. wants.

I hope they proceed with extreme caution if they plan to use AI music creation (this turn out to be a horrible company ending plan for Adobe).

I haven't looked into the Adobe thing that you refer to but the AI, at least by now, is an integral part of the iZotope RX audio editor and as such then I am sure that N.I. will be investing a lot in AI anyway.

don't feel as good as my KORG Pa5X 88.

I would really like to have one of those myself , only I am a few thousand Euro short 😁

I had thought engineers from Germany would be more technically competent on a $1300 US product that is data only,

The problem, or the 'sin' of the engineers, is not lack of skills but lack of sufficient testing in the wild. Had N.I. done enough testing then they would have caught the problems. I pointed that out very early in a post to Matthew_NI and I think that it were in the same discussion that I also pointed out that N.I. might have saved themself from at least some problems if they had provided better cables with the units. Matthew_NI has gone to great length to try to convey that the problem seen from N.I. point of view is that a number of third party products simply do not meet specifications which has created what in the forum appear as an avalanche of problems while from what has been stated by Matthew_NI then the number of users with problems are small compared to number of keyboards sold. (quote Matthew_NI : 'We are talking about a small number of cases' , 'The number of unaffected customers is exponentially larger.' ) And with respect to the cables then while I have not studied enough to know the technical aspects of it all then as far as I understand then the cables provided ought to work where specifications are kept by other things (e.g. computer port connection). I myself however believes that part of the problem not only is that what is USB-C also depends on generation of specification but also then no matter generation of specification then specifications are not always met by the products. I will yet again post a selection of Matthew_NI's statements below here :

Matthew_NI , November 2023 :

"USB-C can be fickle, on certain machines. This can affect all peripherals, but particularly ones sending lots of data back and forth, such as a display or our keyboard(s). I've seen this affect about 100 USB-C monitors across an entire business, and am bound by NDA but it appears specific to certain models of computer.

A high majority of the support issues we've responded to (including things like failure to update, connections to software not occurring, inconsistent performance) have been solved with brute force workarounds of the in-built USB-C connection. Meaning: the use of a USB-C hub to bypass the problematic connection on the direct-in ports, and or other method that are effectively the same (adapter)."

Matthew_NI , December 2023 :

The hardware does work. For many thousands of users. In some cases, things can go wrong (for example, the USB-C issue mentioned above is beyond our control, and all we can do is advise workarounds).

To resolve your issue - I would first ask that you start a dedicated thread so that we can ask more specific questions, and avoid polluting this one. Tag me in once you have, if that's ok. Please note too that threats of social media are unhelpful, and not a faster path to resolution. We are very literally here to help.

Additionally, before even doing the above, could you ensure that you've:

Registered the serial number in Native Access 2
Installed the NI Hardware Connection Service from NA2
Installed Komplete Kontrol 3.1 from NA2
Installed the latest version of Kontakt 7 (if you have it) from NA2
Downloaded and installed the latest version of the keyboard firmware when prompted to do so

Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:05 PM , 2024-02-19 ,

To be very clear, and to avoid any one opinion becoming misinformation, I'll re-state what has been said in various places:

As frustrating as this is to you, it is also to us.

This issue is specific to the USB-C implementation on certain computer models.

This issue is not specific to the peripherals themselves.

This issue causes the communication in the protocol to essentially break, thus data is dropped.

This manifests as various symptoms, depending on the peripheral. For Kontrol S MK3, the dropped data can interrupt a firmware update, or controller -> DAW and/or controller -> Plug-in sync.

The issue can appear at random, frequently or infrequently.

Using a USB-C hub interrupts and bypasses the problematic communication specific to the chips used in the USB-C implementation of affected machines.

We can highlight and advise on workarounds, should a customer be affected.

We can, and have, reported this directly to the manufacturers of affected models. So have many other manufacturers of peripherals.

They can, and have, fixed it in newer models, but of course there exist affected models in the market that will forever be subject to the workaround.

We cannot do any more than this. I'm sorry that some of you choose to blame us. I recognize that it's deeply frustrating, but I cannot change the facts of the matter that I've outlined above.

MK3 has two ports:

1) For simultaneously data and power

2) For auxiliary power if the first port is not able to provide adequate power (e.g. a USB-A port)

These are not two separate issues.

Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:11PM , 2024-02-19 ,

This narrative simply isn't factual. I know how frustrating this is - but please recognize that the shortcoming here is specific to the USB-C implementation in certain hardware, and not the peripherals that are affected by the shortcoming.

As I've stated - it is to do with communication protocols in the chip breaking down, which can affect the transfer of whatever's coming down the pipe (USB-C cable).

Also, we are not talking about a lot of cases. We are talking about a small number of cases handled either here in the forum, or via our customer support channels, or both. The number of unaffected customers is exponentially larger.

Rob Ainscough

I’ve read the above in other threads, no need to copy and paste. I disagree with how the “Variable specification of USB-C” is implemented … not that it might be variable, but that most software engineers already know it’s not a tight spec and as such deal with it via code branches based on results (exceptions) … just part of the job, we do stuff like that everyday (even more so with Browser variances - Chrome, Firefox, Edge - in the implementation of HTML).

Like I said, I have other USB-C devices connected to this computer (i.e. MOTO 828, BMD colorist panel, BMD mixer) … all working without any issues. But, due to the S88 issues I’ve switched them over to RJ45 network interface (since that is a great option).

I want to emphasis the KEY to this issue I had (and others) is that NI’s Firmware Updater disconnected a valid USB connection to the S88 which triggered Windows to try to load a default fallback “Unknown” USB device which really was the S88. This IS a code problem, not a user problem.

If you expand your search to Google (Reddit, and many other forums), you’ll find this issue is NOT a “small number of cases”. Again this issue is specific to the Firmware updater and NOT everyday communications with the S88 via DAW or KK (that is working fine). Need to be VERY clear it’s the Firmware Updater and ONLY the Firmware Updater that has an issue with USB-C and Windows 11.

To end on a positive note, I would HIGHLY recommend the design teams both on EE side and Software side switch from USB-C dependency to a more commonly used network interface using TCP-IP. Most audio interfaces and control surface (all my BMD hardware does) have RJ45 network ports as it’s a “known” method of communications. A network port provides for many benefits:

Well established protocol and interface easy to program for.
Much longer distance support 300 ft vs. USB-C about 10-15 feet.
Firmware updates can be managed entirely in the “Cloud” (simple and more secure).
VST and 3rd party products could directly work with the S88 to resolve issues and/or log errors or monitor errors (Azure AppInsights via Serilog and/or other tools).
I can buy all NI hardware and just plug them all into my switch … can’t do that with USB-C.

In addition, provide a separate power supply … be it built in or barrel port to a power brick … that would at most add $20-30 to the product and resolve many support issues.

Like I said, I have decades of software development and even some EE experience and I want to see NI succeed … might say I have a vested interest in seeing them succeed now. I’m not trying to come across as rude or a know-it-all, but I do have considerable experience long before NI was even a company. If they want to PM me directly they are more than welcome … they also have my support ticker info and hence my email. I really do want to help and not just moan on about this issue.

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