Native Access - Mid Q2 Update

Paul B

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/161241#Comment_161241

Indeed, when the new Native Access came out it was non-functional for me. I reverted to NA1 and stayed there for a few months while they worked out the initial problems (with the caveat that I knew what I was getting into by sticking to an old version and should not expect any bugs in it to be fixed) and then as soon as it was stable for me I updated and have stayed current since.

So I understand the desire of some to be able to prevent auto-updates. And I'm not 100% against the idea when there are such significant problems. It's as a general policy for the software that manages your entire NI ecosystem that I am in favour of auto-update because once the software is relatively stable it is better for everyone that they get fixes and improvements as soon as they are available.

On companies being forthcoming, generally Apple won't even tell you what changed in a point update except that there were "security and other fixes", unless a critical vulnerability was patched. They often don't – as far as I can tell – admit bugs exist and then don't say they've been fixed. So yes, one of the reasons I am in here breaking my usual rule to stay out of this kind of discussion, is because I respect NI's transparency on the matter, and think people are generally way too harsh in their criticism. Claims of ignoring problems, blaming users, gaslighting, what are these people on about?

tempsperdu

Paul B

Claims of ignoring problems, blaming users, gaslighting, what are these people on about?

Surprisingly enough, 'they' are on about exactly that.

When I first started having the 'scanning problems' I informed various beta departments only to be either ignored or fobbed off. I then made numerous posts on the forums to try and trigger a response. I was told just as in the UK post office scandal that it only affected me and that it was my system's fault, something forum members kept jumping on me for too until Hayo finally admitted there was a scanning problem.

Over in the Maschine dept, I was told the scanning was done once on initial load and there wasn't any scanning done after that, even after submitting screen grabs showing the scanning.

Kontakt have told me it has nothing to do with the NTK Daemon yet when I load Kontakt, Process Monitor clearly shows NTK Daemon working in concert with Kontakt rifling through my VST3 folders, even though in the main Kontakt can't use them just as NA2 can't.

They say they are working on a fix, but they have been doing that for literally months with no result.

I have run the support tool and submitted the results to no effect.

NA2 can rake over 30 minutes to become usable for updates after opening, if it actually opens.

Maschine can take over 13 minutes to open and Kontakt currently around 7 minutes.

Now OK some don't have these issues, but some do and for those it's a killer as you might imagine.

I've asked repeatedly just why has the scanning been changed and to what benefit, to not get a satisfactory answer. So much for transparency.

There's an increasingly vile tendency on the Forums for people to be completely self-referential on issues, such that if they don't have a problem, how on earth could others have them? The answer to that is …quite easily...just read and you will see.

MorrisEd

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/161307#Comment_161307

There are a lot of white knights on this forum for NI. Most are beginners or new users that are still in the honeymoon phase with whatever product they bought. Also, many have no idea what these products actually are capable of due to having very narrow use cases, so they aren’t pressed when NI decides to gut features or break something.

Jojo123

@Paul B

To respond to this, you'll need to point out what I wrote that you took to mean this, because nothing I wrote says anything like this.

I never quoted you. Of course you didn't say anything like this, thats simply because I was using typology. What I meant is a small annoyance vs a catestrophic meltdown. That is, by NI FIRST releasing a well tested and stable NA, in which if there are issues they are likely to be much much less problematic… vs …dealing with the carnage RESULTING from a NA that is breaking peoples systems to the point they cant use NI instruments or cant work at all. Some people have had issue after issue with NA after subsequent updates. Some of the fixes and work arounds people are expected to do, shouldn't be happening. This is why its wrong to force updates.

I don't think you know what a beta tester is. Or you've badly misinterpreted what I wrote and again you'd have to explain because nothing I said backs up this assertion.

Or, I perhaps should stick to being more literal. This is what I mean. The way you make your point quite adamantly in favour of automatic updates I think is pretty one sided, meaning the poor ol consumer has to jump through hoops yet again in spite of NA issues. Let me quote you.

It should be allowed only on a case by case basis as a limited exception. Unless, as a user, the person who insists in using an older version acknowledges that they are unsupported. Any problems they have can reasonably be met with ‘please update to the latest version and if the problem persists, we will look into it’. If they refuse, then there is nothing more to be done. Fixes cannot be issued for an old version

This (especially the bold) sounds to me like 1/ dictatorial stick waving which I find unacceptable where issues have been and still are ongoing and 2/ a forced dependance on the slow and cumbersome support system... and let me tell you, much of the frustration comes from long waits for support to respond. It is EXACTLY what has caused more anger and frustration, and your proposal may be OK when things come right, but not at this time. The fact is this is now more than some time in the future which you seem to be putting more emphasis on. No. This is now.

Oh the irony in your last sentence, when repeatedly all last year and still now, some people are still getting things fixed through NA1!

It should also never be possible for anyone's software to suddenly enter a demo state and require reauthorisation. Once a standard license is authorised, it should remain so permanently. Subscriptions do need to be checked periodically, but this should be infrequent, e.g. at the renewal date. Subscriptions will unfortunately be a little more fragile because of this. A single ‘can't connect to the auth servers’ should not result in deactivation, and a grace period, say 24 hours after the renewal time, could be allowed in case someone is having general connection problems.

Yes. Agree for sure. Even tho I'll never do subs, (and thankfully NI have been adamant Pertpetuals are here to stay) I realise the NA experience will probably be different for those who go the Sub path.

I genuinely have no idea what this has to do with anything I wrote or anything anyone from NI wrote. There is as far as I can see no such policy. NI representatives have, as I recall, said there is no such policy.

NO, that last paragraph wasn't referring to you at all, but I should have made that clearer especially since the rest of the foregoing post was in response to you, so apologies for that.

Paul B

Some things not worth responding to in detail. But I got a nice laugh from the accusation of being a white knight, so thanks for that. As for accusations of ignoring the problems of others because I don't experience them, anyone who actually read anything I wrote knows different. Only hearsay evidence of NI blaming users for problems they knew were bugs in their software.

I understand people are frustrated. I'm on board with the need for NI to fix things.

@Jojo123

I never quoted you. Of course you didn't say anything like this, thats simply because I was using typology

My apologies. It wasn't completely clear from the way your response was written.

I've covered my thoughts on auto-updating enough that I'm not going to repeat myself again. Except to say that even if auto-updating is turned off now, if the focus is to fix bugs and upcoming releases will be bug fix releases which improve on the previous version, then I would think everyone having problems would want to update, and people would be happy with auto-update for a more stable application, the point seems of no practical relevance at the moment.

And if anyone absolutely has to have an older version, some way of getting them that version and keeping them there until their systems are happy with the latest is reasonable (i.e. the exceptions previously mentioned).

This (especially the bold) sounds to me like 1/ dictatorial stick waving

You're free to interpret it that way. It was not the intent. I work as a developer and with support people and it's what works best to get bugs fixed. It's in the customer's interest as much as ours to narrow down the potential source of a bug as much as possible and not spend time trying to fix bugs in older versions that are possibly already fixed in newer ones.

You're always forced to deal with whatever support system a company has if you want support. All companies should strive to have a support team which is given the resources to solve problems quickly, and if that is not the case at NI then this needs attention. But it's the only way problems get solved. I'm not sure what alternative you would suggest.

when repeatedly all last year and still now, some people are still getting things fixed through NA1

NA1 is a different application. And also has not had code changes or new releases for a long time as far as I am aware. So it is not a counter to my point. It is unmaintained and you take it for what it is.

tempsperdu

Paul B

As for accusations of ignoring the problems of others because I don't
experience them, anyone who actually read anything I wrote knows
different. Only hearsay evidence of NI blaming users for problems they
knew were bugs in their software.

Then, how on earth do you account for writing???????:

Claims of ignoring problems, blaming users, gaslighting, what are these people on about?

Jojo123

@Paul B

You're always forced to deal with whatever support system a company has
if you want support. All companies should strive to have a support team
which is given the resources to solve problems quickly, and if that is
not the case at NI then this needs attention. But it's the only way
problems get solved. I'm not sure what alternative you would suggest.

OK I'll try to make my case more fully, which I don't usually like to do for a number of reasons. Everyones situations is different with many variables. If Im one of those you refer to as "stubborn" let me tell you Im not. ATM Im operating on a "if it aint broke, dont fix it" scenario. Perhps you might understand from my point of view why I do what I do if I say a bit about my situation, which I'll TRY to keep it more brief than what it is. Right now, to the best of my knowledge my system is running K14 UCE happily. Not without glitches here and there of course but in the main, stable. Now rewind.

I had an issue with Massive rescanning on every load, Standalone, and in Logic. I started a support ticket and sent numerous gifs/ screenshots and info explaining what they asked. There was much back and forthing. It never came right in standalone, but for a brief time it came right in Logic.

I still have over a 2 year old open ticket as to why an update to KK hard crashed Logic. My Mac is ONLY used for music, and I dont willy nilly install this and that and keep things as clean as I can. Except the above scenaraio my system has been fine up until that crashing which came directly after I updated. There was a lot of back and forth which petered out to nothing and I'm still waiting for a dev to get back to me, after I sent in the info they required. So I did everything possible, and I had to wait some days to get the installer of my older version back. Once I installed it all was good again. Im still on that KK version today.

Then I was caught out in the update scenario where 2 products I updated wouldn't work. I got one off google drive and successfully downgraded but that was it. Numerous attempts at getting Picked Acoustic failed over and over and over again. Support sent me link after link which had the wrong version. I had to drill down into MacOS logs to prove the version was the wrong one he kept sending. This nightmare went on for 3 months and it singlehandedly was the most frustrating experience I ever had, HANDS DOWN....and what do I see on this forum? this is still happening to others with this particular library. Mine started last year, now why o why o why, has NI not fixed this?

Since all this, they have seriously nuked KK and AFAIK its still no different. Why would I want to update to a worse version. Same with Kontakt. Dont even start me on ads, tho I dont know how thats being dealt with now.

Now, Im not one of those people who come on the forum with the express intention to just "throw my toys out of the cot". I actually have an interest in how this all goes and want to see NI do better. Transparency and apologies and all those great virtues I appreciate, until they become a mechanism to pacify, stall for time, or any other motive that waters these virtues down.

NA is the hub of everything NI so it needs to work extremely well. NA1 for me has NEVER caused an issue even tho by todays standards I have a very slow connection speed, and it doesn't have that NTK daemon thing running. I dont see it in Activity Monitor at all. Until Hayo gives me some direct conclusive answers Ive been asking for ages, and he keeps ignoring, Im staying put on NA1

From what I understand, you are saying its OK for Companies to use their user base to iron out bugs. I can't see how that is fair, when it renders peoples systems unusable or severely limited, using the products they've paid for. How do other companies get on? NI should have enough variable situations in which to test their software for any serious bugs. This should happen BEFORE release. Nothing else makes sense.

tempsperdu

Jojo123

From what I understand, you are saying its OK for Companies to use their
user base to iron out bugs. I can't see how that is fair, when it
renders peoples systems unusable or severely limited, using the products
they've paid for. How do other companies get on? NI should have enough
variable situations in which to test their software for any serious
bugs. This should happen BEFORE release. Nothing else makes sense.

They'd have to have a beta Dept or similar for that to occur, and there is no indication that that is the case for NA2. If it is the case there is, then it is ludicrous that people experiencing issues aren't on it.

In terms of issues, they seem to operate on doing as little as possible unless the numbers are high enough to 'justify' it. As might have been expected, NI now appears to be focused on profit and certainly not users.

Jojo123

@tempsperdu

There's an increasingly vile tendency on the Forums for people to be
completely self-referential on issues, such that if they don't have a
problem, how on earth could others have them? The answer to that is
…quite easily...just read and you will see.

Indeed. Well said. Unfortunately most forums have a few of these to varying degrees of annoyance. Its the I, I, I, me, me, me, syndrome, and one of the first tactics they hatch is to single you out. Oldest trick in the book. I really appreciate those who have more knowledge than me, and when they expound on it in a non condendescending way, its golden.

I'm truly mystified why all these issues just keep happening. Sometimes I just shake my head in disbelief. We are far from the only ones who've been totally frustrated with the way NI does things.

…………………..

Might as well air my anti-google rant (again). If NA worked properly and we could roll back from something on NI servers, that singlehandedly would alleviate much of my suffering.

That is what I mean when I say I dont want to update anything at present. In fact Im literally scared it will render my system unusable if I do.

Maciej Repetowski

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/161461#Comment_161461

Same here. NA needs lots of work still. I’m always dreading when it auto-updates 😳

Snipey

Im literally scared it will render my system unusable if I do.

Agreed. I was on the fence about upgrading to ultimate this current sale but in the end I couldn't face all the hassle that is NA.

Paul B

@Jojo123 I'm not going to respond to the bulk of your post because there's nothing to disagree with or expand on there.

Now, Im not one of those people who come on the forum with the express intention to just "throw my toys out of the cot". I actually have an interest in how this all goes and want to see NI do better. Transparency and apologies and all those great virtues I appreciate, until they become a mechanism to pacify, stall for time, or any other motive that waters these virtues down.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your situation.

I have the same interest in seeing things get better, which is why I've been openly critical of various issues NI are having, as well as the premise of an always on daemon process.

From what I understand, you are saying its OK for Companies to use their user base to iron out bugs. I can't see how that is fair, when it renders peoples systems unusable or severely limited, using the products they've paid for. How do other companies get on? NI should have enough variable situations in which to test their software for any serious bugs. This should happen BEFORE release. Nothing else makes sense.

Never said, nor implied that.

I do know that some bugs always make it through, and not just small ones. Apart from some very specialised software, I'm not aware of any software product that has made it to the public without bugs. Many equally serious (and worse) bugs have made it out from various software vendors. NI run their software in a very complex ecosystem, and not every variation of system can ever be tested.

This doesn't excuse NI from fixing bugs. It doesn't excuse not making some of them a high priority as soon as they are reported. It's good to be aware, though, that it's not always up to the developers and product managers. I've worked for companies where issues have been known for years that should have been high priority that weren't. It took a change in management to give them the priority they should always have had.

The people representing NA may not always answer every question here, but at this time they appear to be making an effort to address people's concerns. How this plays out is yet to be seen. I'm hopeful, but I understand why others are less so.

One reason I started contributing to this thread was because I thought people could be kinder about how they express their frustrations. It's something I've had to learn over the last few years, particularly in situations where I knew the people I was dealing with were trying their best under the limitations of the system in which they work. And I know how it can feel to be on the other side of such criticism, when I only want to help but can't, or it takes longer than I would like.

It's also why I will not be engaging directly with some people from now on.

Paul B

For the record, things I think could be improved in how NA and general authentication work:

• allow users to choose whether NTKDaemon is always on unless needed for a legitimate reason like subscriptions (the only reason I can think of); i.e. we can choose to have it on demand unless we have a sub (I can vouch for the fact that not having it running except when Native Access is open breaks nothing, and does not in any way affect my ability to install, update, and use Native Instruments software).
• allow rolling back to an older version of any NI software from within Native Access
• ensure a license can never be accidentally invalidated (no sudden unexpected demo mode) – invalidation should happen only as a positive action, i.e. the server clearly communicates a valid reason why a license should be revoked, e.g. expired sub, or the user has been proven to have violated their license terms by e.g. sharing their software and the software has been disabled in their online account (and they have been notified of this action)
• scans of NKS enabled software can be disabled and run on demand instead of every time NA starts, unless they can be guaranteed to be quick; if running (by user assent or otherwise) every time NA starts, do this properly in a background thread that does not delay NA starting and does not get in the way of doing the things the user needs in the moment like installing new software, updating, etc.

Ultimately I don't know their code so I don't know what's practical or if better solutions are available for things like scanning, but all of these make sense to me from a user perspective, and are how I would think if I was on a team developing a similar app.

tempsperdu

Paul B

One reason I started contributing to this thread was because I thought
people could be kinder about how they express their frustrations.

And yet, your comment:

Claims of ignoring problems, blaming users, gaslighting, what are these people on about?

…..was anything but kind and I found it remarkably offensive, doubly so that when picked up on it, you chose to ignore it.

I don't have any clue as to what amount of involvement you have in NI's product range, but if you use Maschine you can hardly have escaped the fact NI's relationship with its users has been little short of toxic on many occasions over the last 4–5 years. They even apologised at one point and then proceeded to carry on even worse.

How kind do you think anyone who has been ignored, blamed, gaslighted and had no offer of a viable workaround for literally months on end (I think it's well over 3 months) on very serious issues is going to be? How kind would you be?

There are a number of people here who have been repeatedly thrown under the bus by NI, and to what end…where are there any plus points for anyone?

So, please by all means indicate how you would approach this…………………………………..

tempsperdu

Paul B

allow users to choose whether NTKDaemon is always on unless needed
for a legitimate reason like subscriptions (the only reason I can think
of); i.e. we can choose to have it on demand unless we have a sub (I can
vouch for the fact that not having it running except when Native Access
is open breaks nothing, and does not in any way affect my ability to
install, update, and use Native Instruments software).

Unless they submit information actually explaining what is supposed to be going on with the changes to scanning practice, I think most would make the assumption that that would be the main reason for this 'additional' scan at start up and that would be fair enough provided that it was efficiently coded to be done in an acceptable time frame.

Isn't it a little odd that no-one seems to know just what is supposed to be happening and why in some cases it appears to be so badly conceived and executed as to make the applications affected barely usable for those affected?…………………………….