The Sheer Joy of 3.10.2

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Comments

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 2,224 Expert

    "Whereas Kontakt 7 scans ALL plugins installed on my system every time I open it"

    And mine does not. Simply not possible to scan all my stuff in 1.3 secs

    That said - NI has now weighted in like everyone asked for.

    Suggest we let Hayo_NI (and maybe others) to get more info to understand exactly what apps are doing what before making anymore assumptions.

    VP

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,378 mod
    edited May 8

    I edited my post to add the following:

    • In terms of Kontakt scanning behaviors, I hope this helps shed some light:
      • Our product scan implementation – regardless of whether it's packaged in the ScanApp for Kontrol, Maschine or integrated into the Browser always performs the same product scan.
      • Since some of our products are interested in VSTs by NKS partners, all products that use the same scanning code (NA, MAS, KK, GR, Kontakt, MX) scan for VSTs as well.
      • I can assure you that Kontakt, MX, GR don't do anything with that information, but the scan happens anyway.

    A good improvement would be … to not do that. And have custom behaviors per product.

  • _Stevie_
    _Stevie_ Member Posts: 29 Member

    A good improvement would be … to not do that. And have custom behaviors per product.

    Absolutely.

  • Klangfarben
    Klangfarben Member Posts: 1 Newcomer

    You are not helping yourself here. First, trying to convince your user base that scanning third-party software that has nothing to do with Kontakt or your other software is totally normal is completely false. A DAW scans your plugins once to check for compatibility. In addition, the user can opt-out of that scanning by either turning it off in the DAW prefs or removing the search path. NI is giving the user ZERO ability to do this, therefore it is a forced scan outside of the user's control. This is not routine or normal. In fact, no other audio software does this, ESPECIALLY not a VST plugin. And I won't go into the fact that, previously NI software did NOT do this even with NKS-compatible plugins and the problem at hand did not exist.

    Second, this means for users that have many third-party plugins, the scan is going to be onerous. You can't make Kontakt or your other plugins scan a massive amount of data faster. So you are punishing users simply because they have a lot of software installed. Not a good policy by any means. Not to mention, how inefficient is your software that you have to scan EVERY SINGLE TIME the plugin instanciates?? Quite honestly that is ridiculous.

    Third, and this honestly kills me when you say you "don't do anything with that information". Ok, but you still HAVE that information, whether you choose to do anything with it or not. Which by the way as an end user we have no idea if this is actually the case. But just the fact that you admit to having this information is bad enough. Oh, hey, we don't do anything with the information when we scan your ENTIRE hard drive for third-party plugins. But we have it. Also, you should totally trust us.

    And last, you should be aware that in the EU it is illegal for you to scan a users hard drive for that information WITHOUT user consent. A hard drive's data is considered private communication and the EU laws are VERY clear on this. "As a main rule, electronic communications data will be confidential, including listening to, monitoring and processing of data by anyone other than the end-user will be prohibited except when permitted by the ePrivacy regulation." Since in this case, NI is not allowing the end user to grant consent and a personal hard drive is clearly private communication data this is not legal in the EU. And given you've freely admitted to doing this on a public forum I think you can count on it being reported.

    An easy out for you here that solves all of this? Allow users to opt-out of the scan. Doing anything else is not only buggy, inefficient and places an undue burden on the user, it's also not legal in the EU.

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,378 mod
    edited May 8

    This isn't a legal issue whatsoever, and to claim as much completely misrepresents the situation and the nuance. Please note that I am not seeking to be unhelpful: I was asked by some of you to provide clarity on why and what is happening.

    And I won't go into the fact that, previously NI software did NOT do this even with NKS-compatible plugins and the problem at hand did not exist.

    You don't need to, because I already said as much. The scanning behavior has always been this way, but became most problematic recently, as I also stated, hence the temporary workaround (that works for some) of using NA 3.8.1.

    I'd really like to encourage people to wait, now that I've laid out what I've laid out, until Hayo and team have been able to complete their investigations.

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,378 mod

    Most importantly: I do not want the information to get lost as any further speculation or feedback is added to the tail end of the thread. Ergo, posting here for reference:

    What's going on

    Temporary workaround

    Other than that, please hold until the team has resolutions in place.

  • tempsperdu
    tempsperdu Member Posts: 424 Pro

    The problem here is that for some of us it affects 4 NI products, NA2, KK, Kontakt and Maschine.

    I have had to create an undue amount of fuss just to get any kind of response on these issues, and hats off to Hayo_NI for admitting that there actually is a problem and seemingly trying hard to fix it.

    The response from Kontakt seems to have been more elsewhere rather than here, but the gist I get is that they are aware there is a problem and are trying to get to the bottom of it.

    I am majorly a Machine user and that is not going well at all.

    There has been a bug in Maschine for years that has repeatedly been reported and repeatedly ignored, whereby many plugins are rescanned at start up that shouldn't need to be. iZotope are one of the main culprits, but not the only ones. Softube have just upgraded their plugins and Amp room is a nightmare and this is now included in that scan and can take over two minutes alone.

    So for me to open Maschine now, I have 3–4 minutes of the 'awaiting product scan' where Process Monitor informs me it is doing pretty much the same thing as is happening with Kontakt and NA2 rifling through my VST3 folder. It then rescans all the products affected by the unfixed bug, which appears to have increased time wise since UAD and Softube updated their software and can take 5 minutes. If I don't have any Kontakt 7 instances in the file, it then very slowly opens up the GUI.

    If I have an instance of Kontakt 7 it then also rifles through my VST3 files for 3-4minues with the result that it can now take over 11 minutes for a Machine file to open. As my 'template' file includes a bass from Retro Machines, then Kontakt is usually in my files.

    I have reported these issues endlessly, but the Maschine view is that very few have these issues, and only I have them with noticeable severity.

    I have requested the choice to turn off this scanning at beginning to be told it isn't actually happening and if it is then it is a fault with my setup and I should take out all my non NI plugins and put them back a batch at a time to try to discover which plugins may be causing the problems. The other offered alternative was being told to do a complete re-install.

    I asked if a diagnostic script could be produced to try and find out why some people are affected and not others, to be told that there aren't the resources, and it is obviously a problem with my set-up.

    As can be seen, it is far from only me that is affected by these issues and whilst there could be some issues with my set-up it is strange there is only an issue with the 4 NI apps. There are no problems with Reaper, Bitwig, Freestyle, MuLab, Waveform or any of the hosting plugins that I have, other than long initial scan times with much of the NI and Softube apps.

  • Jojo123
    Jojo123 Member Posts: 340 Pro
    edited May 11

    @Matthew_NI

    Hi, Thankyou for responding but please dont refer/insinuate to your user base with that hideous non-sensical pop-phrase "conspiracy theory" which people love to aim at their opponents to make them look like fringenutters.

    Neither is all suspicion paranoia, another misused term.

    By far the majority of NI users really appreciate the products they use, and want NI to do well. I am in that camp, so this is not just complaining because there's nothing better to do. What we really want is total transparency and choice how far we want to let your products integrate into our computers and indeed how much of that is necessary.

    A good improvement would be … to not do that. And have custom behaviors per product.

    If I understand that correctly, that sounds great.

  • tempsperdu
    tempsperdu Member Posts: 424 Pro

    Following on from what Jojo123 has said, it seems to me that things are still continuing to go very wrong at NI, and especially in regard to its attitude towards users.


    To introduce real time scanning on opening and not tell anyone was only ever going to lead to upset.
    If anyone could be shown where there could possibly be an advantage in that for users then maybe there's some kind of 'excuse' but has been said earlier, there's no way this doesn't penalise users with large plugin directories.


    As I've indicated, it now takes over 11 minutes for me to open up Maschine if there is an instance of Kontakt 7 in the project file!!!!!!


    I have had to shout out about this in most forums for ages to get any viable reply. Earlier this week, the head of Maschine told me in no uncertain terms that Maschine does an initial scan and that's it and anything else was obviously a problem with my set-up, even though I'd sent him clear evidence of the scanning. Poor inter department communication or advanced gaslighting?


    Most people who have observed what appears to be going on in Process Monitor remain puzzled at just what appears to be going on and having no feedback or transparency from NI is hardly going to engender trust, it is only going to amplify suspicion.


    Why when this behaviour was introduced, and why is there still no possibility of user ability to turn off this behaviour?


    How can anyone infer that my 'set up' has the ability to execute code that scans plugin directories without being instructed to do so?

  • rdalcroft
    rdalcroft Member Posts: 193 Advisor

    Guys, give it a rest!! Let them fix the app in due time.. All this arguing is not helping the matter.

  • tempsperdu
    tempsperdu Member Posts: 424 Pro

    It isn't arguing…it's actually pointing out that things are different to how they are being presented. If you're not affected by it…cool, but for some it's a very serious issue.

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 2,224 Expert
    edited May 11

    @tempsperdu

    Agreed 100% with @rdalcroft .

    We all get that you are affected by this - you have made that abundantly clear for what feels like about 3 months now.

    But wasn't it you that practically demanded NI to weigh in? They did that last week, with a series of posts that addressed five key areas, what these tools do and WHY they did them - and even after all that - you still need to rant and complain?

    NI has clearly stated they are working the issue:

    @Matthew_NI "Other than that, please hold until the team has resolutions in place"

    Is it so difficult to just let them work it?

    VP

  • tempsperdu
    tempsperdu Member Posts: 424 Pro
    edited May 12

    OK…read the posts… yes, I had to over post to get any response from NI… should I have had to? NO!!

    You don't introduce something as potentially destructive as real time scanning at start up and not tell anyone. You yourself have realised that there are issues here, confirmed them and even criticised them. As Jojo mentioned, trying to undermine them by calling them conspiracy theories is insulting and disingenuous, All of this is / was totally unnecessary… It's inane and typical of NI's total disregard of their users. Why…to what end? Who gains from it? No-one…where's the plus points? There aren't any. The reason I blitzed everywhere on this issue was I rightly believed NA2 isn't currently fit for purpose and Maschine shouldn't take 11 minutes for anyone to open up…do you think these issues don't exist? All you and @rdalcroft are doing by your attitude is fanning needless flames.

    I tried unsuccessfully for months to get answers to either being ignored or gaslighted. That's pretty inexcusable and when the head of Maschine tells me there's no real time scan at start up against incontrovertible evidence and acknowledgement and that any issues are my fault, then OK, I'm angry and am not going to not point that out.

    You don't have to read this thread and neither does @rdalcroft, as far as I, and apparently some others are concerned they have not properly answered the queries brought up…even you have said they got it wrong, something I totally agree with.

    For a thread, taking the P, arguably quite rightly, out of NA2 to have got to 14 pages and indicate issues far beyond that just indicates how far out of step NI are, yet again, with its users.

  • Vocalpoint
    Vocalpoint Member Posts: 2,224 Expert
    edited May 12

    @tempsperdu

    Can’t stop you from being angry.

    NI will check back in when they are good and ready on this issue.

    I remain infinitely curious why your experience is total ****** and the majority of us are still experiencing nothing.

    BTW you do not have to read any of my stuff either.

    VP

  • tempsperdu
    tempsperdu Member Posts: 424 Pro

    You have to ask why they pursued this route in the first place………………..

    If you look around the forums, it is far from just me experiencing issues, and I'm rather sceptical about your claims as to 'the majority'. This whole thing of it doesn't affect me, so it doesn't exist, isn't the most open-ended of approaches.

    I don't have to read your stuff but do wonder why you seem so hell-bent on trying to undermine those that have issues.

    None of this is in any way necessary, which is the truly galling part of it. Someone has an issue, they should be able to express it and receive a satisfactory answer, how should it be that repeatably this isn't the case?

    IMHO, it should in no way ever, ever come to this.

    NI's attitude towards its customers started deteriorating not long after I entered the fray, but unfortunately now it seems it's discovered steroids…….. Some might say that's not a good thing…………….

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