Dynamic Tempo Adjustments

Kai_NI

As a user,

I want to be able to dynamically adjust the tempo of my project as an automation / modulation parameter

in order to 

increase the freedom of creative choices when writing music at varying or nonlinear tempo.

This feature has been mentioned alongside different implementation specifics. Some people have been asking for automatable tempo (and alike), whilst others have explicitly asked for the ability to set a tempo per Pattern / Scene.

Both can be seen as valid approaches to yield the expected result. The exact way of implementation is not clear at this stage but both ways are reflected by this story as one of many possible solutions.

tetsuneko

Tempo should be a modulatable target which could be accessed both within patterns and locks. Thinking of this a bit similarly as how MIDI program changes are currently implemented, you can draw in modulation into patterns which send program changes, or you can use lock states for switching them

D-One

Different tempo per Scene sounds great and simple, It's what I am used to having on SW that has an Ideias View equivalent, can't say I ever saw tempo per Pattern as there can be many of those on the same Scene, what happens when I load a bunch of Patterns with different tempo data into the same Scene?

Also, I can't visualize how we would use modulated tempo with the way Maschine is right now...

We can't draw straight lines or curves, there are no tools for any of that, so how would that work? I want to go from X BPM to Y within Z amount of time so I just "ride" the 4D knob with AUTO on and hope for the best? Do I draw a crooked line with the mouse and Grid turned off? Or do I set 2 bpm automation points, in which case either Maschine jumps from X to Y bpm abruptly or will it interpolate and smooth out the transition as if it were a straight line the way Lock States does for other parameters?

I wouldn't want to rely on Lock States for any of this as they can't be named so you have to memorize them, they're not accessible without HW and more importantly they can't be sequenced.

All his to say that IMHO, anything more complicated than Tempo per Scene would require other tools that Maschine doesn't have yet, I'd rather wait for that than have a hacky awkward solution.

ozon

• Tempo for Scenes seem to be the most simple and effective way as a first step.
• Tempo per Pattern could be done in a "override default value" fashion but will lead to confusing results if Patterns of several Groups have conflicting Tempo values as @D-One already pointed out.
• Tempo in Lock States could be an equally simple and useful solution for live performances, as Lock States can be set to interpolate over a set amount of time.
• Real Tempo Modulation is probably best targeted for the future, when Global automation lanes are made available.

Claas Malte

Tempo per Scene is a good idea! Miss this feature and hope it will come.

raphaël_

i also would wish tempo per scene. seems to me the most obvious one to me.

jakubpatok

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of implementing this option through a 'scene parameter'. This would mean that we cannot make smooth transitions between scenes with different tempos. The jump in the tempo would be quite drastic between the scenes. Properly improving the automation and implementing it in the arrangement mode would be the best solution, so that we'd be able to change the tempo gradually throughout the song. To be fair, I think that improving automation should be the highest priority anyway.

Cretin Dilettante

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/138729#Comment_138729

There are a lot of genres of music that utilize such a sudden jump in tempo. For example, some subgenres of Metal feature a "breakdown" section that's basically the song performed in half time. Additionally, some pieces of music sound like they're in a consistent tempo throughout, but when you look at the written sheet music, you find that they have sections in different timings and/or tempos so that writing it out is "neater" and easier to read. This is actually the primary reason I've been so critical of the lack of BPM automation in MAschine, and the suggested workarounds that people have posted here. Nobody wants to stop and do math to figure out how to write a phrase that's suppose to be 200bpm triplets within a project that's 150bpm. I don't care if you can and it's such a consumerist cope disguised as a flex that someone went and did the math for me.

NI: Do not listen to DJs, especially when they say "well I have a background in piano" because (classical) Pianists have no rhythm. If you want Jazz, Prog, Math Rock, and Metal people to pay more attention to Maschine, please implement more detailed methods of articulating rhythm.

ozon

@Cretin Dilettante

There are a lot of genres of music that utilize such a sudden jump in tempo.

Indeed. And also nice explanation how tempo changes and notation are related and facilitate intelligibility of musical structures.

However, the second part of your post is destructive and abusive as usual. Maybe you will learn how to avoid that part. Somewhere in time.

Tommaso Ferrarese

Having automation based tempo/time changes in song mode doesn't exclude the possibility of abrupt changes, while having it scene based excludes the possibility of smooth acceleration or deceleration.

jakubpatok

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/139843#Comment_139843

This is exactly what I mean! Making tempo a parameter within the Scene makes it possible ONLY to make sudden changes of the tempo between the Scenes while making it the automated parameter inside the Arrangement view would make both gradual and abrupt tempo adjustments possible.

b-righteous

Making it a parameter within a scene or section does not mean we would not have a separate feature for dynamic automation too. The reason some want it per scene is it seems easier implement without needing to sort out or overhaul the more complex automation issues first. I think there should be dynamic automation for song tempo and the option to use either section/scene tempo parameter or global song tempo.

jakubpatok

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/142932#Comment_142932

If both options were available - fine. But if I were to choose either of them, I'd pick the option to have it as an automation line in the Arrangement view. Then, it'd be possible to automate it so it changes per scene but also the gradual change would be possible. Implementing the tempo automation in the Arrangement view would be satisfying for both parties.

ozon

@jakubpatok wrote:

Implementing the tempo automation in the Arrangement view would be satisfying for both parties.

Only in Song mode.

Tempo per Scene would allow to have immediate tempo changes in Ideas mode as well.

Kaldosh

The most logical sequel would probably be to introduce Tempo automation and Signature changes within Clips

D-One

If tempo changes are exclusive to the arranger then Ideas View goes out the window, possibly also some forms of 'live performance'.

If I want a Section of my track to be half-time (for example) I'd rather that info be stored on the Scene itself, so every time that Scene happens or is triggered it's always half-time... Especially given the fact that modulation doesn't work with copy/paste.

It's also fair to say the opposite: Maybe I want only one Section to be halftime, in that case I'd just duplicate it (+Patterns) and apply the same logic, have the tempo value inside the Scene/Section.

This is how Ableton and Bitwig do it:

I'm not sure what other use cases people have for variable tempo, maybe tempo ramp up/down slowly? How common is such a thing? Having it both in arranger form and scene/section would obviously be ideal but I still struggle a bit with the use cases for the former VS the amount of dev effort it would require but DAW's as the above example have that option too, then again... they actually have Automation, Maschine only has Modulation.

Having this be too fancy is a big can of worms to open and if things arent implemented carefully in a future-proof manner it will have lots of terrible implications for other things in the future, especially automation... My vote is to keep it simple and have it on Scenes/Sections and revisit this once maschine has propper modulation/automation features, this is however, quite a controversial opinion I guess....

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/143126#Comment_143126

Well... Clips are unique, so multiple tempo changes would require multiple Clips with the same data, if you needed to edit one then you would need to edit them all. Clips are also bound to Groups, it doesn't make much sense to have a Group in charge of something global like tempo, it would mean that if I am already using Clips where I want tempo automation/modulation then I'd be extremely constrained, unless somehow we get the ability to overdub Clips on top of each other... Or maybe "Master" Clips.

Ideally, there should be a new Master lane, where tempo would able to be modulated, this would mean Master plugins could also finally be modulated and things the Peform FX could be recorded on the Master.