NI not playing on the users side, crippling Traktor, abiding to pointless copyright

_Theo_

Because by using Record pools instead, you do not have this pointless limitation at all.

_Theo_

However, i have to "crawl to the cross" (Swedish saying) and correct myself regarding one statement

After finally getting in touch with the right person at NI, and doing some tests, my statement is partially wrong.

you CAN use the Remix deck saving loops and what not FROM OTHER STREAMING SOURCES whilst having a streamed song in one of the ordinary decks (not sure what went wrong or what temporary bug I stumbled upon).

This increases the point being able to use a streamed service a bit.

However, the limitation NOT being able to use the Remix deck on the stream itself, along with suddenly being forbidden to use any record feature (along with the record loop), still makes this option fairly pointless compared to using record pools.

Hence the only reason to use streams instead of record pools would be that it's a tiny bit cheaper, but the limitations doesn't motivate it.

lord-carlos

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/126729#Comment_126729

But I ask again:

How are Traktor user better of without any streaming service at all?

Now I can use record pool and streaming services (and live with the limitations)

If they remove it I have one less option.

_Theo_

Because this added "feature" is fairly pointless, compared to record pools, and by adding a limitation to the software whilst the Terms & Condition actually DOES NOT, state you would not be allowed to do loops and what not on the stream (I mean, you can actually do it in the Deck itself) simply shows a poorly made implementation not being on the customer/users side. They should have said, "yes, we can implement, but no we wont limit"...

They didn't.

lord-carlos

Yes. I understand the limitations. And I understand it's pointless for you personally because you use loop recorder.

But what benefit would the users have if it got removed? It still adds value for some users. Why do you thinks TIDAL is one of the most requested features?

PK The DJ

I can see why NI have gone with disabling recording globally, as the loop recorder can record either from the master, a deck or a line input - so there could a situation where one deck has a streamed track (so can't be recorded) and the other has a local track.

If you try to record a loop from the master when both tracks are playing, it shouldn't record because one of the tracks is streamed. It also shouldn't record from the deck that has a streamed track - but it SHOULD record from the other deck (local track).

In that situation, disabling globally is probably the best option so as not to confuse matters.

_Theo_

But as you can simply just route the streaming app provided by set streaming services in your web browser right into your deck as an external source into Traktor, you can suddenly do exactly what you are NOT allowed to do if having it in one of the decks. If NI is to tell the user what and what not to do, then by definition this is must be a fully legal routing, scenario, where looping and recording suddenly works.

This again puts forward my point of the stupidity of NI trying to be some IP rights police that only creates problems to the user not necessarily upholding the licenses and what you are allowed to do (which is country dependent by the way).

Reading the Terms and Conditions of set streaming services. There is nothing putting forward directly you are not allowed to record your live session. There are restrictions regarding copying streams etc, but this is not necessarily the same. In the end, in Europe you are much welcome to record yourself at your hearts content for private use. And you are allowed to use the streams for personal use, even publicly (if paying for the needed license to do so).

And if looking under the hood of set Traktor software, you are more or less already breaking the license when using you beloved stream, as it will cache on your computer, which is not allowed, etc etc...

This is something all streaming companies are doing 'hush hush' about, because this necessary evil breaks their own Terms & Conditions making everybody a criminal.

Also, if I do also own the full recording, thus having paid for the rights needed to do what can normally be allowed with songs, then does it even matter if I am using the streamed version that is even worse of than the original (only 128kb/sec)?

NI should never have limited what you can do with the stream, but instead put simply forward the licenses from respective streaming service with an agreement button, and wished us all good luck in this License jungle...

Never ever has any limitation put into any hardware/software ever limited people to get around whatever they are trying to limit. It has however, severely given headaches to the ones who abide by the license being ordinary users, when dongles fail, copy protection registering network cards as keys going haywire when changing swapping to another card etc etc.

With code written to limit your use comes the risk of bugs. Who is going to praise the developing team for implementing it whilst giving you a hard time, for no benefit to you whatsoever?

Its a well known fact, products having limitations, sell far less than the ones not having it, also making it pointless from an economic perspective...

lord-carlos

Products having limitations, sell far less than the ones not having it

Exactly. That's why it's a good reason to add streaming. More options. You can either keep using it as is, or add streaming minus recording. People can choose and have overall more ways to use the software.

You read through all the enduser Terms & Conditions that has nothing to do with this, but can't get that people want streaming and don't care that much about loop recorder? It's really not that complicated. People want streaming.

_Theo_

Yes, people want streaming, people don't want limitations built into the software that might introduce bugs or give you a hard time using the product for no reason whatsoever.

I have never put forward to take away streaming, it could be a great feature. I am advocating for taking away a pointless limitation introduced into the software that simply makes no sense from any perspective.

And as we all unknowingly cache when we use streams, loop them and what not, we are all criminals if looking into the legality of it all; not so great in my opinion.

NI should never have bowed for the streaming services ending up being the underdog.

PK The DJ

you can simply just route...

Well there are lots of things that people can "simply do" but that doesn't make it right or legal.

Protecting copyright is not "stupid". I'm sure if somebody stole something belonging to you, you'd be complaining.

They shouldn't need to spell out that recording is not permitted. It's obvious from the fact that the software/hardware doesn't allow it. Those are their requirements.

No idea why you claim that caching the files is not allowed. That's how the software/hardware stores the file while it plays back. If the API allows it, they're within their rights to cache it.

Not all streams are 128k either. Another incorrect statement.

🙄

lord-carlos

I have never put forward to take away streaming,

Well:

NI should never have bowed for the streaming services

NI has the option to either implement it with the limitation put forward to them and all other DJ software .. or not implement it.

Kubrak

If streaming company demands on NI disable recording. Because licencees of streaming services demand it...

There is no space, no discussion to implement recording in Traktor. That is clear, I guess.

OK, one may go around several ways. And everyone is satisfied.

So, what problem do you have? You know, how to get result you need. Is not it better, to leave Traktor as it is and make streaming companies and licence ownerrs happy, that their rights are protected?

Also, you may also download tracks from streaming service beforehand and use them as normal tracks. It is also safer as one never knows if streaming service works right in the moment, you need it. Or, if it still has choosen track....

If you do not like NI implementation of streaming service, simply do not use it. That is the best advice, that is on the table....

maniacintosh81

@_Theo_

I don't understand what is your problem: You have the choice to not use streaming services and have no limitations in Traktor features. Had Native Instruments insisted on no limitations while streaming is used, Beatport/Beatsource wouldn't had agreed to add this feature. So NI had no choice: Users demand streaming, they can implement it only with limitations, so they did it with limitations.

Just don't use streaming services and stay with record pools and everything should be fine for you. Other users appreciate the possibility of using streaming services within Traktor.

_Theo_

PK_The_DJ "Well there are lots of things that people can "simply do" but that doesn't make it right or legal."

Are you sure about this? If there is another mechanism (such as a licence agreement) that will regulate what I am to do, then the whole idea of putting in such regulation in the hardware is pointless.

All in all, it again puts forward the blatantly obvious, the limitation should NOT be in the software, it should be handled by Terms & Conditions.

Then again, maybe I am the only one seeing it all in this way, then everybody (else) is happy and we can all carry on...

PK The DJ

There isn't a license agreement that allows you to record from a streaming service though, so your counter is (as you like to put it) pointless.