What happened with Reaktor VST2 after upgrade to 6.5 and switch to M1?

arno
arno Member Posts: 5 Member
edited April 2023 in Reaktor

I have upgraded to 6.5 (finally, NI is the last company to support M1) and switched Live to M1 native mode, but now all my projects with Reaktor VST2 can't find it.

What happened with VST2? Is it M1 compatible too, or only VST3 is?

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Comments

  • Kymeia
    Kymeia Member Posts: 3,507 Expert
    edited April 2023

    No VST2 is not supported any more on Apple Silicon. If it was most other hosts that would be less of a problem and they would migrate older projects OK to the VST3 but unfortunately Live is one of the few hosts that doesn't support migration of VST2 based projects to VST3. On my system the installer didn't delete the old VST2 versions as they are still needed for older projects but you will still need Rosetta to access them with Live - I suggest copying the presets etc used to replicate them or bouncing them down to audio

  • nanotable
    nanotable Member Posts: 93 Advisor

    Additionally you can contact Ableton and urge them to implement VST2 to VST3 migration. It’s probably too late now anyway for it to make sense, but who knows.

  • arno
    arno Member Posts: 5 Member

    Thank you Kymeia, obviously I didn’t know that, it’s a bummer, but we’ll, now I know how to deal with it.

  • Calagan
    Calagan Member Posts: 143 Advisor
    edited April 2023

    it's very strange, because if I understood good, Georg_NI told in the Reaktor 6.5. Beta thread that they will provide also a VST2 update (post dated march 21st)...

    What's the point to have a 6.5 vst2 if it's not Apple Silicon native ?

  • Calagan
    Calagan Member Posts: 143 Advisor

    And by the way do you see any CPU improvement with the 6.5 update in native mode ?

    I forgot to test it before updating, but after some quick play with it, I don't notice any difference in CPU use... At least I don't need Rosetta now...

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,763 Expert

    What's the point to have a 6.5 vst2 if it's not Apple Silicon native ?

    There are plenty of x86 users (Mac and Win), do not you think so? Why shoul NI waste money on VST2 AS transition when VST2 is phasing out?

    And by the way do you see any CPU improvement with the 6.5 update in native mode ?

    Why do you think there should be any improvement? Maybe just beside very slight one, recognisable only in precise measurements... I can even imagine it could run worse in AS native mode than under Rosetta as it is a new code, there may be bugs still not recognized, optimisations to be done and so on...

  • Calagan
    Calagan Member Posts: 143 Advisor

    Why should they waste money ? I don't know, maybe to answer the needs of their customers...

    They could indeed do like (almost) any other dev I bought plugins from : just update their plugins because it's part of the reason we gave them money in the first place. You don't just buy a plugin that will never change (this is called abandonware, or hardware), you buy long term support, bug fixes, updates fixing incompatibilities... etc. To expect that, you need to have some trust in the company you are buying from, based on previous experience with them.

    It's been my experience with Arturia, Fabfilter, DMG Audio, Tokyo Dawn Labs, Audio Thing, Fuse Audio Labs, Klanghelm, Liquidsonic, U-He, Valhalla, WavesFactory... Just to name a few among big and small companies.

    The long term support is part of the quality of what you're buying, a kind of equivalent of the build's quality (and ease of repair) when you buy a piece of hardware gear. Money invested in the above mentionned companies is money well invested because it's a long term investment : they have good quality plugins and always deliver free updates. I know I will not have any troubles with them on the long term (because I did not have any troubles with them in the past 7 years)...

    It's quite easy to see how is NI trying to get the most money from its customers while doing the less work possible. I doesn't inspire trust and confidence. It even creates some anger and frustration among its users. I guess it's what happens when an investment fund bought you.

    Personnaly, and judging from what I can experience since some years, I'm more and more reluctant in investing any more money in NI (and relying on their product in my work) because I don't see it as a good investment compared to other devs. It's a pity because I like their products, both in Reaktor and Kontakt...

    The upgrade from Reaktor 5 to 6 has been a pain in the ass, like the upgrade from Kontakt 5 to 6. The update from Intel to AS version is similar : exactly like I needed to replace K5 with K6 or R5 with R6 in my sessions in order to be able to recall them in the future, I will need now to replace all the R6 vst2 with R6 vst3 for future compatibility. Of course I understand that vst2 is planned to disappear, but why do all the above mentionned devs still propose functionnal vst2 versions, so we are not obliged to abruptly transition from vst2 to Vst3.

    NI is (again) the only dev I know that never had any vst3 version of their plugins, and as soon as they add the vst3 abandon the vst2. I mean, there's not even a pair of versions of transitioning...

    Regarding the CPU use (my second remark), my expectations are only based (again) on the above mentionned plugin devs : each time they delivered an AS native version, it was using less CPU than the old version running under Rosetta. So why would it be different with NI ? To answer that, come back to my first remark.

    So I don't know exactly why you take their defense on almost each post you can find. Maybe you are the CEO of NI, or maybe the head of Francisco partners - who knows...

    It's like in politics : I never understood the reason why the 99% are so eager to support the interests of the 1% (and vote year after year, everywhere on the planet, against their own interests and keeping the interests of the 1% safe - for exemple letting the billionaires pay less taxes than the guy next door). I'm just a customer, and I just feel screwed by the way NI is managing their products. I will not change that (the only thing I can do is not buy them any more product), but I truly don't understand why any customer would take their defense regarding their policy...

  • colB
    colB Member Posts: 756 Guru

    They could indeed do like (almost) any other dev I bought plugins from : just update their plugins because it's part of the reason we gave them money in the first place.

    There's nothing to update. 6.5 is the very first Reaktor for Apple's new ARM based platform.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,763 Expert

    And making obsolete VST2 for M1 would be waste of money.

    When there were no VST3 versions, people complained, that NI is way behind.... Now they are bad guys again not making obsolete VST2 for AS....

  • Calagan
    Calagan Member Posts: 143 Advisor

    It's exactly like you said, just that your conclusions about it are wrong.

    In march 2023, I was still able to use Reaktor in vst2, and until now I've got years and years of sessions with vst2 versions of Reaktor in it. And now in april, the day NI releases a vst3 version, they totally abandon vst2 and it's "obsolete". Are you using plugins like if you were improvising new things each day and never did nothing in the past you need to keep a trace and recall when needed, or are you using plugins like it's your job to be able to recall stuff from 2 months ago ? Don't you see the issue ? If you don't, I don't think it's worthy to continue the conversation...

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 2,763 Expert

    No, problem. You may use VST2 using Rosetta 2 or x86 Mac. Or use DAW that automates VST2 to VST3 transition.

    I agree, it would be fine, if NI has made also VST2 AS native, but I do not want to pay it. Enought that I had to pay x86->AS transition for Mac users....

  • colB
    colB Member Posts: 756 Guru

    In march 2023, I was still able to use Reaktor in vst2, and until now I've got years and years of sessions with vst2 versions of Reaktor in it. And now in april, the day NI releases a vst3 version, they totally abandon vst2 and it's "obsolete".

    Hmmm, to be abandoned something first needs to exist.

    The platforms that had Reaktor as a VST2 still have VST2 support. Native ARM Reaktor for Apple M series has never had VST2 support. So nothing has been abandoned.

    You want a feature for your new platform hardware that has never been supported on that platfom, and is considered deprecated/obsolete, and you are making a big fuss as though something has been take away from you unfairly?

    Next time a new platform is released don't be so quick to ditch the existing platform that you used for all your work? or at least keep the hardware around so you can access those projects. That's basically IT 101 since day dot!

    This is on Apple and you, stop trying to blame NI!

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