Why 10 is placed after 1 and not after 9. Folder naming quickload menu

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Answers

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Member Posts: 2,929 Expert
    edited June 2023
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/79295#Comment_79295

    You miss the simple point that a human programmed software and likely has simply not considered setting how to display results so it is sorted in a logical way not natural.

    This is all off the point anyway, fact is this is how it is working, it works this way in many cases (even Windows) and so a simple workaround if it bothers the OP is just add a zero.

    Sorry, but those are "western mathematics", in the same way you have the, totally strange and illogical habit when you writing dates, to put the month before (!!!) the day (Which for us, here in the Mediterranean is totally incomprehensible, by the way)! ^_^

    Nothing to do with "Western Maths", it is simply how code sorts strings.

    I am Australian and I do NOT put Month before Date. Not all Western countries are within the United States nor use all the same formats as America does.... I also use metric system.

  • gamaliwa
    gamaliwa Member Posts: 43 Member
    edited June 2023

    Yes that's where software devs differ. There are those who care about user experience and those who don't.

    Those who don't convince themself that the general user doesn't want the logical way, or that it's too difficult to implement anyway because then you'd have to include every possible logical way humans created (romans, numeral, chinese, etc.). It's kind of an autistic way of looking at things


    "Usually most code will have functions that can correct this problem to appease humans" -> to adapt to humans. Maybe you spent so much time with the machine that you see things the other way around. 99 people out of 100 don't.

    "1, II, VIII, 6, 9, 11," No one use that and no one care about that eventuality. On the other hand, everyone uses 1 to 10

    "Almost none of what you say has anything to do with how code works" Hense the word user experience. The user doesn't care about how the code work. They care about how a piece of machine/software integrates their workflow

    Good luck trying to sell Kontakt if it came in 2023.

    1) Hey look at our great mini browser, you can add many folders and organize them... well kind of because 10 is before 9 so there's that

    2) And yeah the GUI is not scalable because ... oh wait it is since 7.4.0 so I can't troll about that anymore

    3) There's the brand new K7 browser, you can use tags to look for a patch. You can add custom tags and edit presets and add them to favorites and ... oh wait, no you can't do none of that. You are just stuck with the default tags the patches have. You can't even combine tags, or have a boolean search with AND, OR etc.. Because well ... there's probably a code explanation to that too 😂

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Member Posts: 2,929 Expert

    I love how people argue over nothing, all I was doing was pointing out WHY it is the case, not defending or saying it is correct, just why code will sort it and likely, whoever coded it simply has not set how results will be ordered in the browser.

    If that is a big enough issue for someone to say they won't it then power to them.

    Glad I tried to help on this one

  • gamaliwa
    gamaliwa Member Posts: 43 Member
    edited June 2023

    not mad at you bro, I know you are trying to help.

    I am just sick of software companies releasing new paid upgrades and actually trying so little to innovate. I'll probably get a lot of S. for saying that. But I just say what is on my mind, kontakt devs section either has instructions to innovate as little as possible because of fear that compatibility will be broken, lack of resources or just plain laziness because they know they can still pull big sales with each new Kontakt version anyway. What was done in the last 10 years could have been done in one upgrade, and I am not even trolling at this point

  • Sunborn
    Sunborn NKS User Library Mod Posts: 2,846 mod

    Guys, the reality here, is that all those imperfections, small or big, have nothing to do with the ability to create music, for your fun or professionally, which after all, is the real goal, otherwise, why someone would buy music programs?

    So at the end, who cares if the GUI is not scale-able, or if folder 10 is before folder 9, if a program offers countless possibilities to you, so you can do the thing you love?

    Remember, tons of amazing music were composed, in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's and tons more, earlier, from millions of artists that didn't had not even the 1/1000 of your options and possibilities!

    Be grateful for that, stop whining, maybe even spend less time online and go make some nice music instead! 😉

  • Paul B
    Paul B Member Posts: 163 Advisor

    @JesterMgee

    I appreciate that you're (from your point of view) just stating that this is the way it works at the moment. But since you addressed my comments… please take this as a well-intentioned clarification of what I was saying and not meant as an attack on you.

    You can get yourself lost in a sea of regex expressions trying to make everything appear as every individual would expect in a list, someone will always have a different idea.

    Which is why you don't implement every ill-considered idea. None of this has to do with sorting numbers the way humans expect numbers to be sorted.

    Hexadecimal, especially when dealing with binary stuff is an expected notation I would have, but usually this is not counted as a number.

    People do not usually write and order lists using hexadecimal. Your example is an edge case, which as you say is not a normal way of sorting, nor is it something that is used often, unlike common everyday numbers.

    You miss the simple point that a human programmed software and likely has simply not considered setting how to display results so it is sorted in a logical way not natural.

    I did not miss that point. EvilDragon made that point and I repeated it. I have acknowledged that this is the way it works at the moment. Also that I use the 'leading zero' approach because I do not trust software to have always been implemented with a properly human focused UI. My replies were to the arguments that this is the way it should work and that using natural sorting is a bad idea. As you say

    I love how people argue over nothing

    I've had the same thought from the opposite perspective – how much effort some have put into arguing against making a human focused UI, complete with imaginary scenarios and extreme edge cases that no one would reasonably expect to be supported and weren't asked for.

  • Paul B
    Paul B Member Posts: 163 Advisor
    edited June 2023

    @Sunborn

    I don't really care about any of this that much (well, the new scaling feature is welcomed, though if you're running at a normal resolution like 1440p it's not vital, and not having it never stopped me making music).

    I commented initially more out of amusement that anyone would think natural sorting is undesirable. Also hasn't stopped me making music. So yeah, no whining here, just a slightly amused fascination.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,051 Expert
    edited June 2023

    "1, II, VIII, 6, 9, 11," No one use that and no one care about that eventuality. On the other hand, everyone uses 1 to 10

    I DO use roman numbers and it is used on many ocasions.... In contracts, books, scientic articles, numbering floors, rooms, expressing year, ...

    But simply, there are many ways to order things. The old way will bring expectable result, maybe not pleasing or so on, but expectable one comprehends the rules.

    "Natural ordering" seems to be OK for me, if there is ISO standard how to do it and companies would strictly stick to that. I really do not want to seek file in thousands of files in situation when it is sorted in the way programmer has decided it is natural....

  • gamaliwa
    gamaliwa Member Posts: 43 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/79321#Comment_79321

    Here we go, the eternal argument of « it won’t stop you making music »


    True. And also irrelevant. We are not talking about making music, in fact we are not talking about music at all here. We are talking about softwares.

    we are talking about a company selling software to clients. So there’s 3 keywords here : « software, company, client ». Things that involve money, expectations, features, innovation, work.

  • Sunborn
    Sunborn NKS User Library Mod Posts: 2,846 mod
    edited June 2023
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/79384#Comment_79384

    True, but i can't see why my comment is irrelevant. I was trying to show you a "bigger picture", perhaps the fact that younger generations are much more impatient and demanding than our generations, which of course it is not a bad thing. 😉

  • Paul B
    Paul B Member Posts: 163 Advisor
    edited June 2023

    I DO use roman numbers and it is used on many ocasions.... In contracts, books, scientic articles, numbering floors, rooms, expressing year, ...

    And these are all valid uses in context of audio software GUIs?

    Custom software for those applications can use Roman numeral ordering. It's not complicated.

    But simply, there are many ways to order things

    There is in general one way (per number system in use) to order numbers that is human focused and behaves the way humans expect numbers to be sorted. I acknowledge that some systems such as Chinese have variations. This is not an insurmountable problem. I merely requires different rules which will be understood by anyone capable of understanding those number systems when written by hand (or typed into a text document).

    "Natural ordering" seems to be OK for me, if there is ISO standard how to do it and companies would strictly stick to that. I really do not want to seek file in thousands of files in situation when it is sorted in the way programmer has decided it is natural...

    It may not be an ISO standard, but I don't think we really need one to make it clear that the algorithm sorts numbers the way humans do. I don't know and have never met anyone who doesn't understand that without needing a standard. The decision for how natural sorting works wasn't a programmer decision divorced from all other considerations. It was a recognition of how humans sort these things. It is well understood and can not be arbitrarily changed, because a deviation from the established way will no longer be natural sorting.

    At this point I have to conclude you're either completely misunderstanding the context of the discussion, or wilfully refusing to so that you can make a point.

  • gamaliwa
    gamaliwa Member Posts: 43 Member
    edited June 2023

    @sunborn Yes you are right. And it didn't stop me from making music and from loving the process, even with old tools. I am young yes (29), but I was always attracted to the concept of workflow, which for me is the seamless osmosis between the human and its tool. And If I get into a heated argument, it's just passion speaking :)

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