Terribly disappointed in S88 MK3

EJ James · 2024-11-09T01:41:04+00:00

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Short backstory…

Been running on version locked Windows 10 v1809 PC with a Focusrite Saffire 40 Pro for several years and it's been working great. I can't upgrade Windows since my TI 1394 Firewire drivers aren't compatible with later versions. Some of the upgrades I've wanted to pursue lately didn't work because of that older version of Windows. So….it was time for a change.

To get current and provide a bit of future-proofing, about a month ago I bought a Mac Studio Ultra. About a week ago I picked up an S88 Mk3 (to replace my S61 Mk2). I'm not a n00b with Mac, so that's all good. I'd also successfully upgraded the firmware on the Mk3, so that wasn't the issue either. I also swapped out the Saffire 40 for a Gen 3 Scarlett 18i20 I have in my rack to make sure everything was 'current'.

I swear, if I didn't already shave my head I would have pulled all of my hair out over the last week. I COULD NOT get a reliable connection between the Mac and the Mk3 to save my life. I searched and tried every solution I could find, but NOTHING would work. I'd constantly get message on the Mk3's LCD to "get the latest firmware…blah blah blah". Just to be sure I'd restart everything and load up the firmware updater just to confirm. Yep, it's already been updated.

I tried different cables. Even ordered new ones based on recommendations in the manual, in the FAQ's, and here on the forums. No go.

I disconnected EVERY other midi device, cleaned up all the background processes, removed any unrelated apps, etc, just to make sure I was only dealing with the Mk3 and the Mac Studio. NOTHING WORKED.

Next I decided to put the Win10 PC back in the loop and it LOOKED like everything was going to work, but NOPE! Within 5 or-so minutes…."get the latest firmware….blah blah blah". I was livid.

In the end I decided to send the S88 back, stick with my trusty Win10/Saffire40 setup, and put my S61 back in service. So now here I sit, back to where I was a few weeks ago, only now I've got an expensive Mac sitting lonely in the corner. I'll probably slide it back in place of the PC and swap out the Saffire for the Scarlett 18i20 at some point again, but for now I just want to write and record again.

After this fiasco I don't know if I'll ever trust another NI controller (unless someone here can help me pin point the exact cause and fix for the S88). That Arturia Keylab 88 is looking decent, but dangit….I really wanted an NI controller to work with all of my Komplete stuff.

I'll just sign this one…
—
Bummed

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Comments

Mark Oxley

I can't offer a solution to your problem but it does rather sound like it could be yet another faulty keyboard, especially after all the fault finding you've undertaken. As a side note if NI know that the cable shipped with the keyboard can cause issues then why on earth have they not exchanged it for the cable recommended in the manual?

Studiowaves

Dood, I'm still using a TI 1394 firewire card on Win11. I have an Maudio Profire 610 soundcard hooked up to the 1394. I don't know how you managed to get bad information on the 1394 and thinking you have to lock updates on Win 10. I used it will all of the updates on win 10 and now thru everything on Win11. It works fine just like it always has.

DunedinDragon

You do know there's been multiple updates on that firmware, right? In fact another one just this week on both the Hardware Connection Service in Native Access as well as an update download on the firmware. If you updated the Hardware Connection Service in Native Access already, the next thing you'll see when you boot up your MK3 is a message to update the firmware.

Ojustaboo

Sorry you've had problems does sound like you've been unlucky and got a faulty one, it happens with any manufacture/product

I'm using my S88 mk3 on my Mac Pro M1 Pro and it works superbly, I absolutely adore it and am very very pleased with my purchase I use it every day, I appreciate my experience doesn't help you, but I don't think it's fair to say you wouldn't trust another NI controller, don't forget, it's only the relatively small amount of people that complain on forums, the rest are happily using the products.

I also realise that on release, there was a problem with the firmware updates, but I think that was only on windows and required a fix byMicrosoft that was done months ago.

kal-el

I have exactly the same problem on Windows, 11. I received this Mk3 s88 for my birthday last week.
After about ten update attempts, I'm thinking of sending it again too. 😡😔

Ojustaboo

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/189513#Comment_189513

It's such a great keyboard, I thought NI had sorted out the problem with updating the firmware, they had a big problem but that was a year. Have you got a power supply plugged into the S88 (imo NI should have supplied a power supply in the S88 box) and are you using the usb cable that came in the box?

PoorFellow

I tried different cables. Even ordered new ones based on recommendations in the manual, in the FAQ's, and here on the forums. No go.

This is not very specific with respect to what cables that you actually tried and if you tried an USB-C hub as recommended by N.I. (Ref. : Kontrol S-Series MK3: Troubleshooting Firmware Update Issues ).

Also : Quote Matthew_NI,Product Team, October 1 :

Problem:

Some computer chip sets made between2020 and 2023 have a known USB-C error that can't be fixed. This can cause sporadic problems with USB-C peripherals like the Kontrol SMK3, including connection failures, freezing, or issues with firmware updates.

Solution:

If you experience these issues, try using a USB-C hub between your Kontrol S MK3 and your computer. This can help avoid the problem and ensure a stable connection. This is critically important during firmware updates, as data loss could cause broken firmware. Make sure the hub supports both power and data transfer.

Also then you do not mention if you actually tried contacting N.I. Hardware Support

But I can try calling for @Matthew_NI to see if he has got anything that he would like to add to any of this.

Mark Oxley

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/189551#Comment_189551

Just how many cables should the op be expected to try before finding 1 that actually works? He mentioned that he tried another cables other than the 1 supplied with the keyboard including the recommended cable referred to in manual and that didn't work either.

I hadn't heard about this issue with chips controlling usb-c before but if that is indeed what's going on here then surely that's an in-house issue that should be rectified by NI by means of a repair/replacement of that chip and not the responsibility on the end user to purchase further equipment to get it working. Not to mention the hours of frustration that causes.

In my opinion NI should be investigating whether or not a full recall is in order.

tetsuneko

I'd just send the S88MKIII back and keep using the S61MKII with your new mac as long as possible (Old style USB hubs which connect to USB-C cost like 10-20 bucks, no need for an expensive Apple branded dongle).

You can always upgrade to the MKIII series keyboards later. They aren't "mature" yet IMHO

PoorFellow

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/189567#Comment_189567

Just how many cables should the op be expected to try before finding 1 that actually works? He mentioned that he tried another cables other than the 1 supplied with the keyboard including the recommended cable referred to in manual and that didn't work either.

I am not responsible for any of this and can only do my best to advice. Also I don't think that I questioned how many cables that the OP had tried. What I wrote were : "

I wrote that because it didn't give any information about what cables were tried and also it didn't appear as if the OP had actually tried using an USB-C hub though writing "I tried different cables. Even ordered new ones based on recommendations in the manual, in the FAQ's, and here on the forums. No go. "

I hadn't heard about this issue with chips controlling usb-c before but if that is indeed what's going on here then surely that's an in-house issue that should be rectified by NI by means of a repair/replacement of that chip and not the responsibility on the end user to purchase further equipment to get it working. Not to mention the hours of frustration that causes.

It appear as you have both missed most of what has been going on here with respect to the MK3 keyboards for a long time and as if you have completely misunderstood the issue here (ref. : surely that's an in-house issue that should be rectified by NI by means of a repair/replacement of that chip) , since how can it be the responsibility of N.I. to replace something built into the users computer ? But since that you have missed so much then here is a scoop of references stretching a whole year back now. The forum posting software screws up the text formatting when pasting here so despite that I have used ten minutes to try to fix the errors then I might have missed some so please excuse any text errors :

Matthew_NI, November 2023 :

"USB-C can be fickle, on certain machines. This can affect all peripherals, but particularly ones sending lots of data back and forth, such as a display or our keyboard(s). I've seen this affect about 100 USB-C monitors across an entire business, and am bound by NDA but it appears specific to certain models of computer.

A high majority of the support issues we've responded to(including things like failure to update, connections to software not occurring, inconsistent performance) have been solved with brute force workarounds of the in-built USB-C connection. Meaning: the use of a USB-C hub to bypass the problematic connection on the direct-in ports, and or other method that are effectively the same (adapter)."

Matthew_NI, December 2023 :

The hardware does work. For many thousands of users. In some cases, things can go wrong (for example, the USB-C issue mentioned above is beyond our control, and all we can do is advise workarounds).

To resolve your issue - I would first ask that you start a dedicated thread so that we can ask more specific questions, and avoid polluting this one. Tag me in once you have, if that's ok.Please note too that threats of social media are unhelpful, and not a faster path to resolution. We are very literally here to help.

Additionally, before even doing the above, could you ensure that you've:

Registered the serial number in Native Access 2
Installed the NI Hardware Connection Service from NA2
Installed Komplete Kontrol 3.1from NA2
Installed the latest version of Kontakt 7 (if you have it) from NA2
Downloaded and installed the latest version of the keyboard firmware when prompted to do so

Matthew_NI,Product Team, 3:05 PM , 2024-02-19 ,

To be very clear, and to avoid any one opinion becoming misinformation, I'll re-state what has been said in various places:

As frustrating as this is to you, it is also to us.

This issue is specific to the USB-C implementation on certain computer models.

This issue is not specific to the peripherals themselves.

This issue causes the communication in the protocol to essentially break, thus data is dropped.

This manifests as various symptoms, depending on the peripheral. For Kontrol S MK3, the dropped data can interrupt a firmware update, or controller -> DAW and/or controller ->Plug-in sync.

The issue can appear at random, frequently or infrequently.

Using a USB-C hub interrupts and bypasses the problematic communication specific to the chips used in the USB-C implementation of affected machines.

We can highlight and advise on workarounds, should a customer be affected.

We can, and have, reported this directly to the manufacturers of affected models. So have many other manufacturers of peripherals.

They can, and have, fixed it in newer models, but of course there exist affected models in the market that will forever be subject to the workaround.

We cannot do any more than this. I'm sorry that some of you choose to blame us. I recognize that it's deeply frustrating, but I cannot change the facts of the matter that I've outlined above.

MK3 has two ports:

1) For simultaneously data and power

2) For auxiliary power if the first port is not able to provide adequate power (e.g. a USB-A port)

These are not two separate issues.

Matthew_NI,Product Team, 3:11PM , 2024-02-19 ,

This narrative simply isn't factual. I know how frustrating this is - but please recognize that the shortcoming here is specific to the USB-C implementation in certain hardware, and not the peripherals that are affected by the shortcoming.

As I've stated - it is to do with communication protocols in the chip breaking down, which can affect the transfer of whatever's coming down the pipe (USB-C cable).

Also, we are not talking about a lot of cases. We are talking about a small number of cases handled either here in the forum, orvia our customer support channels, or both. The number of unaffected customers is exponentially larger.

Mark Oxley

Completely misunderstood what you wrote regarding the chip issue surrounding usb-c. I thought you were referring to a chip in the MK3 itself. Apologies for any confusion I might have caused.

I stand by the whole cable fiasco though. If there are issues regarding this and 2 cables meeting a particular requirement are the answer to ensure consistent power needs then why don't NI supply these? I've said it before, why didn't this issue show up while the keyboards were tested during the development stage?

There are enough customers having this problem for a more permanent fix especially as it still seems to be an issue a year after launch.

In hindsight I wonder if NI regret the decision to power it this way instead of going down the path of a traditional wall plug?

I did see quite a few threads raising this issue and suggestions on how to address them but I definitely had not read anywhere about bad usb-c chips in computers being a possible candidate for the MK3 problem.

You learn something new every day.

Matthew_NI

I would like to respond here.

Based on the specific computer and chipset mentioned, and the symptoms described, I am 99% certain this was the USB-C error specific to certain chipsets, affecting peripherals like ours.

We have tried to extensively document this, as there's nothing we can do other than suggest a USB-C hub is used in between the peripherals (e.g. MK3) and the computer, as this bypasses the problematic hardware implementation that certain computers suffer from.

These issues cause dropped communication, which results in issues like the above. Users understandably, but incorrectly, assume it's the cable, as changing the cable may randomly correlate with the issue going away - whereas laboratory tests have confirmed the cable has nothing to do with it, and that using the hub is the only reliable workaround. That should clear up any mistruths about the cable we ship in the box too.

Unfortunately, it appears we weren't given an opportunity to recommend remedying this before the device was returned - but the information is available wherever we can post it, as blog and community posts. Before anyone assumes this was a faulty device, it was almost definitely that which I've mentioned.

Lastly - the Windows version mentioned is out of date, and wouldn't contain the correct drivers.

Matthew_NI

In hindsight I wonder if NI regret the decision to power it this way instead of going down the path of a traditional wall plug?

It's not about the power, it's about the data connection. That's the cause of the issue(s) here. I would say no, we don't, as USB-C is the future, and it's only specific computers/chipsets that are affected. It is enormously frustrating though, particularly as we and other peripheral manufacturers report these issues to the makers, to no avail.

Matthew_NI

I definitely had not read anywhere about bad usb-c chips in computers being a possible candidate for the MK3 problem.

This has been the number one cause of customer support tickets for the MK3, and has affected nearly 100% of MK3 purchasers on affected machines manufactured between 2020-late 2023 (not a majority of users, fortunately, but still very frustrating) to the extent we even had to issue a recent email outlining the USB-C hub workaround as a preemptive measure.

There has been a lot on this forum about it too.

EJ James

First, thanks for all the great responses and suggestions. They're all very much appreciated and have helped.

Next, let me answer some questions raised thus far:

What cables have tried? @PoorFellow
A: Including the one that came with the unit I've tried 5 other cables. Brands ranging from Belkin, to Anker, to Cable Matters, et al. All rated for USB C data transfer rates AND more than sufficient power power supply wattage/voltage/amperage. Both USB A and USB C connectors in varying combinations.
Did you update the firmware? @DunedinDragon
A: Yes, and even checked it several times thereafter to make sure I was on the latest/greatest. I can't post a screen shot since that unit is on its way back to Amazon.
Did I try a hub in between the Mac and the Mk3? @PoorFellow
A: Yes, a CalDigit TS4. A pretty reputable and trustworthy brand and model.
Not only that, but I tried several ports on that hub. Power supplied USB A to Mk3's USB C. USB C to
USB C, etc. No combination of any ports/cable connection types resolved the issue.
Did I try to contact support? @PoorFellow
A: Yes, I looked everywhere for the link to the submission form, not realizing is was the stupid little chat-bot style pop-up at the time. Now I know.

Suggestion for NI: Put a REAL submission form in place and make it easier to access. A topic I have a tad of experience with, having been developing software since '92, and websites since '96. I'm by no means an expert, but NI support has a reputation of being inaccessible, and I can only assume that your current method of contacting support is mostly to blame. It's frustrating.
@Matthew_NI -
— "Lastly - the Windows version mentioned is out of date, and wouldn't contain the correct drivers."

Response: That's odd, because as I said it connected just fine and I was even able to verify the firmware had been updated. It was shortly thereafter that the connection seemed to be lost.

— "Unfortunately, it appears we weren't given an opportunity to recommend remedying this before the device was returned"

Response: You're going to get your chance. I've ordered a 2nd unit as well as more cables with varying connection types, all with sufficient data/power ratings recommended here and elsewhere specifically for remedying these types of issues on the Mk3's.

I know I said I was hesitant to trust another NI Kontrol controller, but after getting back to 'square 1' with my Win10/Firewire/S61 setup last night and being able to actually work on new stuff today….I just can't help myself. I've got a considerable investment in Kontakt (13, 14UC, 15UC) and other NKS partner libraries that I'd like to continue taking advantage of their functionality together. Other controllers look nice, but the plug-n-play nature of the NI hardware with NKS instruments and libraries is simply unparalleled in my opinion.

Anyways….the new Mk3 will be here on Tuesday and I've reconfigured my main studio rack so it can accommodate both my Win PC AND the Mac Studio with a simple flip of a switch and rerouting of a couple of cables.

Finally @Studiowaves - "Dood, I'm still using a TI 1394 firewire card on Win11. I have an Maudio Profire 610 soundcard hooked up to the 1394."

Good to know! I'll look into the newer cards, even though I only built this PC last year and bought 3 different cards to test. The only one it would work with is version restricted (or so it seems). Thanks for the heads up!!!!! That gives me hope of keeping the behemoth PC alive and well. 😁

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