Scary and sudden dissapearence of Kontakt based music tracks in my Ableton sessions.

Hello everyone.

This is such a scary subject that I think it´s of everyone´s interest. I have already opened a ticket for this subject, but they found no solution, so out of total desperation, I decided to join the forum and ask you for help, which I´d appreciate immensely.

A few days ago, after several hours of composing using Ableton Live 11 and experiencing no problem at all, I turned off the computer to have dinner. One hour later, I switched it on to start again with the same session, and to my surprise, it said that some plugins were deactivated. Basically all of them, since the Kontakt player (and of course the access to all my virtual instruments that worked through it, 8dio, Albion, etc.) had dissapeared from the Ableton list. The "reason" is, if I have to believe the message, that those plugins could not be found in VST2, although they worked just fine since some years ago to an hour before the unfortunate event.

I desperately downloaded Kontakt 7 a few minutes ago, and it now appears on the Ableton list, but it just makes no difference. Everything seems to be lost.

I am in serious trouble. Basically all my music has been created via Kontakt 5, with all their virtual instruments. But there necessarily must be a solution. I just can´t wrap my head around the fact that all is just lost, with no reason, so go look for another thing to do, boy…No, there has to be an answer, and I´d be willing to pay to anyone who can give me a solution.

If you have something to say, please, do.

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DunedinDragon

The change in VST structure is directly related to the latest changes across the industry in moving to the new VST model. It doesn't automatically delete your old VSTs but you need to update them to the newer VST structure to be compliant with the new standards in Kontakt 7 and Native Instruments and is based on the Steinberg model and functions much more broadly on both audio and midi than do the previous versions. The alternative is to go back to the previous version of Kontakt, Komplete Kontrol and Native Access as those will use the older VSTs which are probably all still there on your computer.

Plugins from companies like 8DIO have never been fully compliant with the licensed NKS standard so you typically have to load them as you always have either directly from the file system or through the quick-load process.

Rogelio

Dunedin Dragon, thank you so very much for the thorough reply. Unfortunately, my technological knowledge is very limited, and I don´t know if I understand your response correctly. Let me explain to me that out of pure desperation, I bought a Mac (I had worked all my life with Windows 11) with the hope that their system could solve the problem. That process included the transfer of all my plugin licenses to this new laptop.

Now, both in my Mac and Windows systems I have the new versions of Kontakt, but also the old versions which don´t seem to work. In practical terms,

1/ what would be the next step?
2/ are you willing to say there is a way to recover my music following those steps you mention in the previous post?

3/ is there a way to get the (paid, of course) job done by someone else with enough knowledge of computation applied to music? I mean, a similar thing happened to me with EastWest plugins back in the day, when their plugins dissapeared from my Ableton sessions, and they managed to solve the problem themselves via a remote TeamViewer action.

Thank you very much again.

stephen24

Sounds dire.

I know nothing about Ableton so can give only generic Windows-based advice.

Your account is not entirely clear, but as I understand it your DAW seems suddenly to be unable to "find" the Kontakt 5 VST plugin (presumably Kontakt full). This could be because the VST has been moved, renamed or corrupted.

Find what folder your DAW expects it to be in. Maybe under Options, or Preferences, the folder for VST plugins will have been specified. Ableton manual if necessary. Alternatively find Ableton in C:/Program Files and there should probably be a subfolder called VST or Plugins. The file is called Kontakt 5.dll or something similar (there are actually 3, with differing numbers of outputs). If it's not there, find it and put it in. Download a new copy if necessary (Google "Kontakt legacy").

God help you if you've tried to use Native Access which seems to be able effortlessly to wreak havoc, and shouldn't be necessary if the diagnosis above is correct.

Rogelio

Thank you, Stephen, I appreciate the reply. And yes, it´s that dire, because although I have the audios of my work, each Ableton session became totally worthless, nothing is there, so I can´t modify what I have already finished or finish compositions that were on the making.

All you say sounds familiar. I basically tried everything, but I will check it again with the help of someone who´s more knowledgable about these issues. There is something that´s missing in my efforts, which included what you explain.

I will keep you informed if I get to solve the problem, because this is a problem that might be of everyone´s interest.

Jeremy_NI

@Rogelio This error message usually happens if you load a project made on Intel on a M/Sillicon Mac. To open such projects you need to open Ableton in Rosetta mode: How to Open Your DAW Using Rosetta

You mention Kontakt 5. Kontakt 5 is not officially supported on the latest Mac operating systems and was discontinued long before Apple completrely changed their architecture. If you still want to use it, you will need to run Ableton in Rosetta mode. We can't guarantee full functionality for Kontakt 5 on a MacOs Sonoma.

Rogelio

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/174826#Comment_174826

Thank you, Jeremy, for your help. Unfortunately my issue is not Mac related only. Actually, buying a Mac was a desperate attempt to solve a problem that had started days before in my Windows computer, the same Windows computer where paradoxically I had created all those sessions.

Do you have any further ideas? It´s been now four long months since I tried and start collecting possible solutions from Native Instruments/8Dio/Ableton staff, and also musicians, producers, etc., just with nobody being able to find a reason and solution. You can imagine my situation…

Vocalpoint

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/174848#Comment_174848

One thing is very clear - no app or operating system is suddenly going to deactivate all your plugins and make things disappear within an hour of it's last use unless something major occurred on the system in question.

This seems a tad odd to me:

"A few days ago, after several hours of composing using Ableton Live 11 and experiencing no problem at all, I turned off the computer to have dinner. One hour later, I switched it on to start again with the same session, and to my surprise, it said that some plugins were deactivated".

Did you actually power off? Log off? Or just walk away to have dinner?

Computers cannot make decisions on their own - unless told to do so. By Windows Update. Or some script running. Or something a user has done like going into Native Access and allowing updates to occur. Many of which can and have resulted in what you describe.

I know that this feels uncomfortable - but if this was normal - I think you can see that it would have far reaching circumstance for more than just you.

Is it possible to open a troublesome session and screencap some of these errors etc so we can get a baseline?

Another thing to immediately check is to search the entire system drive for any file named Kontakt 5.dll or Kontakt.dll and see what comes up. I am skeptical that these files simply disappeared.

Rogelio

Thank you, Vocalpoint, for your reply.

Yes, I turned off the computer before having dinner, after saving the modifications on the project, as usual. The issue started when I powered the computer on again. But no update was accepted by me in that particular moment.

I am attaching the particular composition I was working on, and the messages it sends. I hope this can give you an idea of the situation,

2024-04-11.png

2024-04-02.png

Vocalpoint

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/174863#Comment_174863

Thanks

It is not giving me any comfort seeing that "Super Spyware" dialog box flashing in the bottom corner of one of those screen shots. Those kinds of programs are sketchy at best.

Next steps - is to tell us - via a system drive search - where that Kontakt 5.dll is and where Ableton is thinking it should be looking for it:

Show us a screenshot of this screen from your machine.

Rogelio

Hi and thank you again.

I have to apologize, because far from being the typical computer raised composer, I am strictly the latter, so I don´t know if I am giving you the right information with these screenshots. Please, let me know. Besides, this are screenshots from Windows, from which I have moved my plugin licenses to Mac. If anyway you want the Windows information, here it is:

2024-08-29 (1).png

2024-08-29 (3).png

Vocalpoint

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/174873#Comment_174873

Thanks

Now we are getting somewhere - and it appears that you have a gigantic mess here with the respect to file storage

With respect to Kontakt 5 - you have at least 5 instances of this file scattered all over the place:

I am guessing that files 1 and 2 are the most logical targets - but I cannot see the actual full directory path in this screenshot nor am I fluent in Spanish - but I assume one of these relate to the actual Ableton VST 2 directory path shown here:

Which is

C:\Program Files\Native Instruments\VSTPlugins 64 Bit.

This is where Ableton is looking for Kontakt 5 - and nowhere else

As far as the rest of these instances of Kontakt 5 are concerned - I have no idea what is going on there - but it can't be good. There should only ever be one Kontakt 5.dll on the entire hard drive. Same for K6 and K7.

Looks like a lot of unnecessary file copying and other stuff has been occurring for reasons unknown.

If it was me - and given what Ableton is telling me - and the file data - I would do the following - based on this roadmap:

Shut down Ableton
Ensure File 1 Kontakt 5.dll (62.5 MB - dated 6/6/2018 16:56pm)
Ensure File 2 Kontakt 5 8Out.dll (52.6 MB - dated 6/6/2018 16:56pm)
Ensure File 3 Kontakt 5 16Out.dll (52.6 MB - dated 6/6/2018 16:56pm)

Are all present in this directory:

C:\Program Files\Native Instruments\VSTPlugins 64 Bit.

Then:

Ensure File 4 Kontakt 5.dll (56.5.5 MB - dated 6/6/2018 16:56pm)
Ensure File 5 Kontakt 5 8Out.dll (52.6 MB - dated 6/6/2018 16:56pm)
Ensure File 6 Kontakt 5 16Out.dll (52.6 MB - dated 6/6/2018 16:56pm)

Are all present in this directory:

C:\Program Files\Native Instruments\VSTPlugins 32 Bit.

I am totally guessing purely on file size - that these 6 are the required Kontakt 5 files.

After you can confirm all 6 files are in the right spot - fire up Ableton and one of your troublesome projects and tell us the result.

Only when you can confirm that all old projects open fine WITH Kontakt 5 - If you are back to normal - locate and delete all other copies of Kontakt per the screencap above.

The bottom three are a much older version of Kontakt 5 - which is probably not necessary. And all the other ones on your E:\Drive - I have no idea but they serve no purpose.

Also - for future reference - consider this industry standard path setting (in Native Access) to avoid all this nonsense in the future:

Never let Native Access dictate any use of it's goofy "Native Instruments" paths for VSTs - they are cumbersome and not industry standard. NI should know better - but keeps pushing this oddbal agenda for reasons unknown.

Another nice bonus: I am also guessing that if Ableton is ONLY looking for VST2 plugins in this nonsense path:

C:\Program Files\Native Instruments\VSTPlugins 64 Bit.

You may actually be missing out on the use of a ton of other vendor plugins you may have that would be installed by default to the more standard path I have above:

C:\Program Files\VSTPlugins

AND the same one you actually did use back in 2017 - but somehow stopped using:

Lots to do here. But go slow. Test one thing at a time when confirming those 6 key files.

And do not delete any of the others until you confirm your old Ableton projects are starting to look better.

Update us when you can

Rogelio

I don´t have (English or Spanish…) words to explain how much I appreciate what you are doing.
I am perfectly conscious of the mess I have there, but for some reason it didn´t interfere in years with my composing and recording, and I was just extremely focused on those duties to care. If I am paying the price, I am doing it big time.

Please, let me wait until a friend who´s a producer with advanced knowledge of technology applied to music comes from his holidays, and I will keep you updated with the results of your instructions, which I will follow with his help.

Thank you so much, and good night.

Vocalpoint

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/174888#Comment_174888

My pleasure - we will figure this out eventually :)

At least we know what is going on now…and it's a lot.

Rogelio

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/174890#Comment_174890

Hello, Vocalpoint.

The last day you gave me some indications regarding particular ".dll" files that should be at route "C:/Programe Archives/Native Instruments/VST plugins". Well, they are, and I found out that all that duplication mess was actually not real. When I clicked on the duplicated ones to erase them, I received the message that they were not there yet. They simply appeared when I searched my Windows computer via the search box.

Now, since I passed every licence (East West, 8Dio, etc.) from my Windows device to my Mac in the hope that the new operative system could solve the problem, I suppose that the next step is asking those companies to allow me to have the licences active in both Windows and Mac, isn´t it?

Vocalpoint

You are entitled to install NI products on three different devices - as long as only one is in use at any given time. Should be no issue to transfer from PC to Mac

That said - I would be more concerned about the actual move (and usage) of your older products on Mac OS - especially if your new Mac is using Sonoma etc.

Pretty much all old plugins (like Kontakt 5 etc) are no longer supported under these modern Mac OS's. When using NI on Mac - there are strict version requirements of software to be available, specific versions of Native Access to be able to get updates on specific flavours of Mac OS and so on.

There can be a lot of fine juggling to navigate when trying to use old unsupported software on a new Mac.

Just something to be keenly aware of before you get too far into this.

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