Stuck with KONTROL S88 MK3 Updater ... conflicting instructions??
Answers
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It appears the DFU driver has broken for some Windows users - but the steps to repair it are in the hands of the user, as outlined here.
Did these steps work, or are you still experiencing issues?
Please also note that one release note of the new update reads as follows:
https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/16567321051805-How-Can-I-Update-the-Driver-and-Firmware-of-My-Kontrol-S88-MK3-on-Windows
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There is an extensive line of correspondence with this user - that I can summarize as:
- We've acknowledged the bug, present in an unsupported DAW
- We've filed the bug, and prioritized it as low (it affects fewer users than other higher priority issues)
- We've also outlined our current priorities, and set expectations that the particular issue this user is concerned with will be fixed no earlier than Q4 of this year
- We've communicated all of the above to the user, who remains unsatisfied
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Hi Matthew,
See my prior response. No, if I select Quit from the firmware updater I’m unable to continue using my NI S88 MK3 as it will remain with a prompt to get update regardless of a power cycle.
Yes, I reference that article in my prior 17 step solution. To clarify, that driver update process ONLY works for the current duration of my Windows 11 session and ONLY for the firmware update process. On a reboot of my PC, Win11 will revert back to the drivers it believes are best … which BTW function perfectly during normal operations of my S88 MK3.
What it looks like to me is that NI have not figured out how to correctly trigger a firmware mode update on the S88 MK3 using Win11 drivers. So either NI need to submit corrected drivers to Microsoft so they are included in Windows 11 “Check for Updates” or they need to figure out how to enter firmware update mode on existing Win11 standard drivers. I’ll emphasis this because I should NOT need to disconnect all my USB devices in order for the firmware update to work with the very bizarre 17 step process I outlined earlier … this is NOT normal, none of my other USB device that accept firmware updates have this requirement.
EDIT: I’ll add that leaving customers with device that used to work and now doesn’t work because of a rather strange update process should IMHO be of highest priority. Unfortunately we’re (customers) not even getting acknowledgement of the issue and the focus seems to be on “work arounds”.
Rob.
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Moved discussion to the corresponding thread
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I understand that it's not normal - indeed it isn't normal for most of our users, either.
The very first driver (September 2023) had a bug that unduly affected S88 firmware updates. That was fixed, also in September, and submitted to Microsoft pre-launch, but then took them until December to release.
Since December, the correct driver has been available.
My best guess, since the issue has cropped up once again, and certain users have had to follow the DFU repair steps as above, but that the drivers have themselves not changed, is that something deep within Windows, or the rollout of the drivers we provided, is somehow cached, or being recalled or reset incorrectly server side, with Microsoft, since it's clear there exist conditions under which the correct driver is unobtainable unless you take manual steps.
I'll reach out to Microsoft regarding the matter and see what we uncover. By my count about 10 users have run into this since Thursday August 6th, and prior to that not en masse since pre-December.
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- I opened a request for support, but by the time I heard back from them I'd already received the fix from the member of the dev team and had my upgrade working.
- I was researching the problem, but I was interrupted by the fix being sent to me by the dev team member here on this forum.
- The process never completed in my case. It was stuck and I terminated it.
- I absolutely agree a) report problems b) workarounds and c) solutions. I noticed whining isn't among them.
- Again I agree both positive and negative feedback are always useful in improving a product. Negative feedback about feature roadmaps or development priorities are well outside the parameters of feedback that's relevant here. Those priorities are set based on proprietary business factors and strategic market opportunities and are well outside the knowledge and expertise of anyone in this community..including myself who spent the vast majority of my career in commercial software product development as a Program Manager. There you don't answer to CEO/CIOs. You respond to broad market directions and opportunities for market expansion driven by the product team. At least that's how healthy commercial product development works.
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Microsoft do move slow, especially when it comes to drivers (lots of security/testing) - multi-month.
But the more pressing issue is not being able to continue to use my S88 MK3 … I think the development team could provide a more immediate solution to that issue with some addition environment detection. Giving us an opportunity to quit and live with prior firmware until a more robust solution is available.
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I’ll disagree with some parts of #5 point. How a company markets their support is paramount in any software/hardware industry. I come from background where I started my career as a Software Engineer, Senior Software Engineer, Lead Software Engineer, Product Manager, Software Development Manager, CTO … I never lost sight of the fallibility of software engineering and it’s customer impact. Market driven, new, new, new produces disposable products (be it tangible and intangible) which ultimately becomes unsustainable and only brings in short term windfall.
Marketing/strategy is exactly why we’re in this position (long standing I will add). Development resources all diverted to “new” and not enough allocated to “maintenance”. I and many others wouldn’t be posting here if it weren’t for those strategy decisions so it’s very relevant to us customers.
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Well, therein lies the difference between commercial development and corporate development. In commercial development you're responding as much to technology movements and momentum in the overall marketplace for setting the guidelines and priorities for where you invest in new products. Within a corporation it's more based on the need to accomplish a given mission within a department of an organization. Some of the market influences are still there such as "our competitor is now offering this capability" so it does end up influencing the funding of projects. But the projects tends to be more centered around the needs within a functional group of the company than outside customers for the most part. That, of course is changing based on internet presence of some companies.
Regardless of the difference the same principles apply as far as best practices for development and delivery of finished and stable products before moving on to the next iteration of the development cycle. And it's not just about who's in charge of it. It's more about how well the whole team understands and coordinates their activities to produce the right results at the right time across ALL of the disciplines involved. There are very efficient and productive ways of organizing such efforts, but the vast majority of IT departments tend to be unaware of them and they suffer upwards of an 80% plus dissatisfaction rate with internal projects based on industry surveys. Commercial software companies wouldn't be in business very long with those results. That's one reason software companies tend to make their product groups owners of the financial results which isn't always the case in corporate settings where you're really just a cost center. Likewise a commercial product, once shipped, is on to the next generation of the product because it has to have something desirable to sell next year, which is not typical at all of most corporate development. For that reason alone commercial product groups have to transition fairly quickly out of the last shipped version to concentrate on the next version. That's just fundamental to the best practices and nature of the commercial software business.
For several years I traveled all over the world working with corporate IT departments in helping them adopt certain key commercial software development practices and was able to see some really stunning turnarounds. But also some pretty bad failures simply due to the the inflexibility of corporate cultures being able to adopt new and different ways of doing things from how it's "always been done here".
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I’ve worked both … doesn’t change work resources … the only time that approach is beneficial is for short term … get in and get out.
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Hey @Rob Ainscough I've contacted you by email regarding this, please check your inbox.
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I believe Jeremy is able to end you the workaround installer.
I also have a theory:
It is indeed a negative side effect that users manually updating will no longer automatically receive driver updates through Windows Update. Once you have manually installed a driver (by installer or right click override) this takes precedence over every other driver. This is unfortunately how Windows driver lookup works.
It seems that Windows 11 no longer remembers that the user has manually chosen the right driver. Windows 10 did... so this is one thing I'll pursue with Microsoft. Again - the correct drivers have been available since December, so something about the distribution is at play here.0 -
Thanks Jeremy, got it, in office, will report back results tonight.
Rob.
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- All Windows 10 updates installed
- Updated Hardware Connection Service 1.7.6
- Updated Komplete Kontrol to 3.3.2
- Restarted PC after updates
- Using the correct power supply and USB cable
Tried to remove the KONTROL S88 MK3 DFU driver.
No idea what to do now.
Back to the same problem when the keyboard came out of the box. i cannot believe that the same problem occurs again after these updates...
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See step 13 in this thread from my solution:
—> If you get the red/pink box after about 60 seconds that says there is an error and you hear that a USB device disconnect (this is the KONTROL S88 MK3 disconnecting) and is no longer shown in Device Manager under "Universal Seral Bus Devices" but hear the sound of USB device reconnecting … the KONTROL S88 MK3 will now show up under "Other Devices" with an exclamation point (this is a KEY step not mentioned anywhere). You need to follow the KB docs and manually install the drivers for the Other Devices listing for the KONTROL S88 MK3: ←-
You don't "delete" the driver, you "update" the driver and you MUST do this while the firmware updater is running as it is a "once only" … the updated drivers will only remain for the duration of the firmware updater running. The driver will not "stick", Windows will always keep detecting a different driver and not the one NI want to use.
Here is the article:
https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/16567321051805-How-Can-I-Update-the-Driver-and-Firmware-of-My-Kontrol-S88-MK3-on-Windows
Rob
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