Stuck with KONTROL S88 MK3 Updater ... conflicting instructions??

24

Answers

  • PoorFellow
    PoorFellow Moderator Posts: 4,924 mod
    edited June 17

    @Rob Ainscough

    I’ve read the above in other threads, no need to copy and paste.

    Sorry , I have no idea about what you read and do not read in other threads. And also all I can do is to share the information given to us all , which yes I could have done by links but much more referable if as a copy and paste.

    As for your personal abilities as EE and more then good for you that you have all that , wish it were me , but alas I have less knowledge about that also, not for lack of trying believe me (I lived at the wrong place and had neither the means nor the support), so I am not equipped to engage in discussions over the nuances of the technical matters and while Matthew_NI most likely has signed more NDAs and for that reason usually is unable to engage into any real discussions then I can still try to call for Matthew_NI to see if he has anything that he wants to add.

    With respect to your wish for TCP-IP connectivity then being another user here then I of course have no say but I agree with respect to the general usability which now as AoIP apparently got around 50 years on it's back and for decades has been seen used for KVM over IP (IPKVM) and same goes for PoE. However I think that AoIP/'audio interface using TCP-IP' is mostly only for the professional/semi-professional segment and I can already sort of imagine what a N.I. response would be : How many percent of customers use that versus the cost of implementing it not to mention the cost of maintenance and support for same ? And honestly I could not imagine that the idea would ever fly at N.I. unless N.I. some day began making keyboards only for professionals such as you (?) or if the world were suddenly changed so that the whole USB-C connectivity drive are suddenly not going to continue to happen and that it were going to be replaced with TCP-IP connectivity instead.

    @Matthew_NI , some feedback for you and the rest of the keyboard team from Rob Ainscough in more previous posts , starting at page 1

  • Maciej Repetowski
    Maciej Repetowski Member Posts: 674 Guru
    edited June 17

    Hmmm, those are really frightening stories. I would probably have given up and returned the controller before sorting this out like the OP did.

    Granted, I’m on a Mac (Intel Mac mini), but all I did was to plug original USB-C cable between S49 Mk3 and the computer and run the updater. It took approximately 5 minutes and the controller was ready to be used 🤔

    Interesting that some users have tremendous problems with firmware update and some others have none.

    Not enough testing by NI, perhaps?

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,454 mod

    It sounds like the Windows driver is not fully installed, or missing.

    I suspect that's what support was seeking to direct you to fully install.

    It's installed by Microsoft, who made it available since December 2023, in a minor version update to Windows.

    Users sometimes think their Windows is up to date, or think they don't need to update Windows, but may have an auto update option checked that ignores minor versions, or not checked at all.

    Since I'm unfamiliar with your journey thus far - please accept my apologies if this feels redundant, but that sounds like a strong possibility.

    Secondly, I'd point out that Reaper is not an officially supported host. It works very well for most KSMK3 users who have it (who are not seeing these hangs) and there are even unofficial scripts to improve the implementation from people like DrivenByMoss, but we claim no official support for Reaper in any of our Kontrol product pages, so it is possible you're experiencing an unusual issue, and on a host we don't officially support.

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,454 mod

    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/25459/s88-mk3-how-to-fix-windows-driver-and-firmware-updater-issues

    This lists out the issue I mentioned

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 1,454 mod

    @Erwinew @Rob Ainscough - feel free to PM me if I can be of further help (I think this thread is now about two separate issues, one from each of you)

  • Rob Ainscough
    Rob Ainscough Member Posts: 62 Member

    @Matthew_NI Will PM you later … heading to office now, NOT a Windows Driver update issue, please don’t let this thread die there. @PoorFellow no need for PoE, having separate power supply is preferred.

    Cheers Rob

  • Rob Ainscough
    Rob Ainscough Member Posts: 62 Member

    I see NI have done absolutely NOTHING to fix their KSMK3Updater. I still have to follow the 17 step process I outlined in this thread in order to get to 1.7.6 firmware … and NO option to NOT update.

    I can't imagine the number sales this has lost for NI … must be more than just allocating resources to fixing this KSMK3Updater.

    Evidence of consumer discontent:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/NativeInstruments/comments/1bcpvpb/firmware_issues_with_new_kontrol_s61_mk3/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/NativeInstruments/comments/1avfik0/native_instruments_is_really_going_worse_with/

    https://vi-control.net/community/threads/native-instruments-komplete-kontrol-s88-mk-iii-beautiful-but-completely-useless.150158/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/NativeInstruments/comments/16nrd88/firmware_update_for_kk_mk3/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/NativeInstruments/comments/1dlyyx9/komplete_kontrol_m32_firmware_update_to_death/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/maschine/comments/190td24/maschine_mk2_firmware_hardware_update_issue/

    These are just a few I found from 1000's of search hit with same firmware issues.

    What do we have to do to get someone's attention at NI?

    Rob.

  • Erwinew
    Erwinew Member Posts: 73 Member

    What do we have to do to get someone's attention at NI?

    If you're lucky, the problem will be administrated and they're done. I confirm: NI fully focuses on new product development and fixing customer reported issues has low no priority.

  • Rob Ainscough
    Rob Ainscough Member Posts: 62 Member

    Such philosophy is costing them sales, IMHO more than they hope to recover from “new product development” … nobody is going to buy new products if they can’t make their existing products work. Reputation is so VERY important in the field of “entertainment”.

  • DunedinDragon
    DunedinDragon Member Posts: 975 Guru

    I myself had some problems updating the new MK3 firmware release, but got it solved within a couple of hours with a process provided by someone from the development team. I forwarded that same process to someone else that was having what appeared to be the same issue and he solved his issue just as quickly.

    I'm thinking my "luck" in solving the problems was more that I was primarily interested in working with the NI team on this forum to understanding what I needed to do to get it working than being critical of NI's development/testing efforts.

  • Erwinew
    Erwinew Member Posts: 73 Member

    In this case you're lucky that there is a workaround possible. To give you an indication: I'm still fighting to get a Komplete Kontrol VST3 bug fixed by NI which crashes REAPER reported since November 2023. A solution is postponed to September at minimum and I've serious doubts if it will ever be fixed when reading all recent negative customer feedback about NI. Now REAPER customers can use the S88 Mk3 only as MIDI keyboard as Komplete Kontrol VST3 plugin is not working.

    As I started to spread on forums / social media, I've collected in short time confirmation from 10 potential customers waiting or not buying / upgrading to a Mk3 keyboard due to this lack of support. The trade off between losing customers in the price range of 800 and 1300 Euro for the S keyboard + not buying plugins compared with an experienced software engineer fixing the problem in just a matter of days is totally out of balance. The damage to the brand name is now widely discussed as you already discovered and posted.

    NI support can check a private conversation which is just an example:

    Thank you for your reply, I believe I have now received answers to all my questions. So, I just need to wait for them to fix the bug that crashes Reaper, and then I might buy an MK3.

    Thank you for taking the time for me

    Yes, I have confirmation from NI that new product development like Maschine 3 has highest priority and classified this critical KK3 bug as low. I'm not surprised that the firmware issues are not addressed as there are no firmware and KK3 releases since product launch. There is no discussion possible via several NI escalation path I already used: NI decides, period. I don't give up as I'm preparing next escalation step. I will include this thread as well.

    NI cannot enforce product roadmap for the music industry: Customers simply do not accept buggy software which is released too early on the market and does not come with support. We as customer decide if this business model with focusing on new products only is sustainable for the future.

  • DunedinDragon
    DunedinDragon Member Posts: 975 Guru

    Well given that Reaper is not listed as a supported DAW for this release of the MK3 yet I'm not surprised it doesn't work. Those are the kind of things you check BEFORE you buy something. They've been very forthcoming with this information of what DAWs are supported since the MK3 was introduced.

  • Rob Ainscough
    Rob Ainscough Member Posts: 62 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/170779#Comment_170779

    I’ll take this jab at me …

    1. You should not have to contact NI support, support cost you and NI tech time/money.
    2. I provided my own solution to resolving the issue earlier in this thread, did you?
    3. The process outlines in NI own KB is NOT NORMAL and taking over 3 hours to complete.
    4. The forums exists to report problems, workarounds, and solutions.
    5. Feedback is valuable be it positive or negative, NI should be thankful.

    Like I’ve posted, decades of software engineering experience here managing, coding, design, UAT, integration testing and reporting to CTO/CEO … I know the drill and I have the experience. The road NI have chosen here is not good for their health … been there and done that.

    But one MAJOR issue is that if I can’t update my NI, I’m stuck … the S88 MK3 will not operate period. I have NO CHOICE to ignore a firmware update, if I can’t get the S88 MK3 updated I may as well toss it away in trash … that is NOT a good selling point.

    We post issues to help the company, not hinder it. I’ve listed just a small fraction on users that have issues with NI firmware update process … this isn’t something to be ignored in favor of “new product development” because no one is going to buy New Products when there old product doesn’t work at all. Would anyone buy a new NI product when a firmware update has bricked their existing NI product?

    If anything, a Thank You would be nice followed by a fix. That’s “NORMAL” process of SDLC.

    Rob.

  • Erwinew
    Erwinew Member Posts: 73 Member
    edited August 6

    Sorry, I omitted the details:

    Well given that Reaper is not listed as a supported DAW for this release of the MK3

    Kontrol S-Series keyboard product specifications section DAW integration contains a list of supported DAW integrations. You're right, REAPER is not mentioned in this list and can be easily addressed with a 3rd party plugin.

    However, I'm talking about the Komplete Kontrol VST3 plugin which describes in section Compatible plug-in formats: Windows (64-bit only): Stand-alone, VST3, AAX without a list of supported DAW's.

    The list of compatible plugin formats is identical to any NI VST3 software product. For example take a look at the Kontakt product specification which states as Windows requirement: Windows (64-bit only): Stand-alone, VST3, AAX How do you know that your DAW is supported when there is no list of supported DAW's? This is also applicable to Komplete Kontrol VST3.

    They've been very forthcoming with this information of what DAWs are supported since the MK3 was introduced.

    It would be very helpful if you can point to clear product specification which DAW's are supports for the NI VST3 Komplete Kontrol plugin, not the keyboard - DAW integration feature. Based on clearly specified system requirements a customer can decide to buy or not to buy the product which is now missing and misleading. Any NI VST3 plugin works with REAPER, except the core product Komplete Kontrol VST3 which is not updated since March 2024.

    DAW integration and VST3 support are two different things and should not be confused to take the conclusion "REAPER is not supported". You're not the only one making this mistake, even NI support does not understand this. As 10+ year customer I never had these major issues before.

    Rob, I fully understand your frustration and support you:

    I see NI have done absolutely NOTHING to fix their KSMK3Updater.

    Don't forget that the webshops are the first contact point to handle this firmware support.

    I confirm, there is no update available. As I said: Problem administrated and no follow-up for improvement. Most new customers will encounter this problem which results in a bad out-of-the-box experience.

    But one MAJOR issue is that if I can’t update my NI, I’m stuck … the S88 MK3 will not operate period.

    Correct. I'm wondering: Are you able to use the product now as advertised?

  • Rob Ainscough
    Rob Ainscough Member Posts: 62 Member
    edited August 6

    I can only use my S88 MK3 as advertised because I came up with a solution. The firmware updater suggests that if I click on the Quit button I’ll be able to use my S88 MK3. That is simply false. It can’t communicate with my S88 MK3 so there is no way the Quit could clear the S88 MK3 prompt.

    From what I’ve discovered is that if I bring up NI Access and perform due diligence with updates and I trigger the NI Control Service update. After NI Control Service update completes, my S88 MK3 display will prompt for firmware update. So it appears the NI Control Service update can communicate with my S88 MK3 just fine. Which is what triggered me to get the latest firmware updater and go thru this nightmare of a process again. This issue is so OBVIOUSLY a coding problem with the Firmware updater.

    So if I wanted to continue using my S88 MK3 I would need to make sure I do NOT run the update of NI Control Service from NI Access. This is NOT mentioned anywhere, only once again by “discovery”.

    Being a software engineer, I’ve seriously consider decompile or attach to process using VS and see what I come up with … it’s not .NET so more work but likely C++. I can see where it kills existing USB device connection to try to get into “Firmware mode” … I wonder if they’re using a Raspberry Pi on some custom Linux build to manage the S88 MK3 … it might explain the VERY long process to do a firmware update.

    Rob

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