TP4 Grid are a mess

Hey NI? You have not addressed the changes in "Grid" behavior from TP3 to TP4. There is NO "Grid" dropdown menu option in TP4 and you cannot place a "Grid" marker in any slot other than slot 1 (aka cue 1). Plus there is a bug when you delete a "Grid" marker in TP4 the old marker still shows. In TP3, the "Grid" color was white. Now is TP4, the "Grid" color is Grey (whaaat?)

Judging from this forum, NI's official word is they didn't add “Grid” functionality BC it didnt receive enough votes lmao? NI made the vote contain 4 different features all in one vote. Then voted it down due to lack of votes lmao. This is core functionality that has been with traktor as long as Traktor has been in existence. Ppl arent going to like this once they actually make a grid in TP4 or manage old grids coming from TP3. Once ppl realize the limitations they’re gonna hate it.

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/33732/how-to-reset-measure-start-in-traktor-pro-4

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ErikMinekus

Why do you need a grid marker to be a hot cue? Just drop a separate hot cue on top of the grid marker.

MrCee

I want to add to this post and point out the functionality which has truly been lost here with a visual representation.
If multiple hot cues were saved as grid previously in Traktor 3, yes the grid would be synchronized again.
Having just saved a handful of hot cues as grid on Traktor 3, and although stored as grey on the UI on Traktor 4.0, they are only cues. The grid is not reset.

It's a major oversight in development.

Here is how we can visualize this mess as @John6 has posted…

Traktor Pro 3.11 is reset to 4/4

Traktor Pro 4.0 is not reset at all, the previous white grid markers may appear grey when loading tracks defined in Traktor 3.11, but they are only cues now, and there is no further option to define a new grid which will be synchronized with the rest of the track.

tricade

Are you downloading illegal music ? "http://electronicfresh.***" ?

MrCee

@tricade Not at all! And besides, that's not really relevant as this post is not about track tags.

John6

Glad others have chimed in. @MrCee thanks for the visuals. Your spot on.

Who exactly are these beta testers???? Were they Traktor users at all??? How about a "Spotlight" on the beta testers who didn't catch this mammoth oversight lol.

When analyzing a track in TP4, it will decide where it wants to put the Grey colored Grid marker (in slot 1 only lol). You cannot change it, you cannot move it, you cannot pass go you cannot collect $200. If coming from TP3 the white markers are now grey and they are incapable of doing literally anything lol.

If TP4 analyzes the track wrongly (which happens 6 outta 10 times), you simply cannot alter it, move it, or do anything with it…NOTHING! So you gotta delete it and rely on Cue, Load, Fade in, or fade out to set the GRID??? WHaaat?? Why???

NI is avoiding talking about it. They've deleted abt 100 of my response posts abt it on NI's Youtube channel.

I get that NOW we can use Cue, Load, Fade in, and Fade out to set the grid. And we dont have to rely on the actual White Grid marker (now colored GREY 🙃) anymore. But why?

In my case I just use the Load (Yellow) marker to set the grid manually on the downbeat (at the place id like load /start) and then Lock the BPM. This way the "4x4 Grid is set to my liking and the track starts where I want it to when loading into deck. And I have 7 free Cue points.

Im lost on what they're trying to achieve with the White (now Grey lol) Grid marker in slot 1 after analyzing the track. 6 times out of 10 its going to analyze it wrong. Then you get to set there and just look at it wondering why its even there….

Who wants to start a request or bug report abt the issue?

Sûlherokhh

I am still getting the hang of the grid wizardry now available and once i've connected the new commands to my controllers i am going to tackle one or two of my 'special' tracks. As a Techno and Dubstep DJ it's a rare occurance to encounter something with an unsteady tempo.

But, in the past, those few tracks breaking the mold during a break only needed a second gridmarker to mark the new downbeat (sometimes a third). And i never number my gridmarkers anyway, using hotcues only to easily jump through the track…

John6

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/169528#Comment_169528

Yeah the white marker head (at the top of your TP4 picture in the track window) is wonky. Its cut off at the top. You picture captures it perfectly. Something isn't right. I feel like most haven't even bought TP4 yet so all they see is WOW flexible Beat Grids!! Wait till TP3 users start using TP4 lol. No one is going to understand this if they are coming from TP3. NI gonna have to recon with it.

saradis

You're overcomplicating it in your head. The new grid system is fantastic, and is only lacking on A.the measure part (each new grid marker doesn't define a new downbeat) and B. flexible grid bpm changes do not transfer through the id3 tag, only the marker positions, so you have to set the new tempo values for each section (sometimes) if you transfer the file on another computer or collection.

The video explaining the new grid system simply does not explain things well enough. You see, the markers that define the bpm now live in a seperate space and you can have an infinite number of them if you want to. A grid marker doesn't have a hotcue assigned to it, and even if you enable that in settings for the autogrid cue, it just drops a grid/tempo marker where the program detects it best, as well as a hotcue on the same spot, but the grid marker and the hotcue (number 1 for new files) are two different markers. Every one of your old grid markers that was assigned to a hotcue now correlates to a new grid marker as well as a seperate hotcue with the same number as before. I don't know why they left them to be white, but these white cues that used to be grid markers are just cues now, and if you enter the grid panel you can delete the extra markers but the hotcues will not be erased, nor the opposite. They shouldn't still be white though, and by the way having an option to assign colors to cues would be awesome.

As for the new grid, there are buttons as well as commands in the mapping section for you to change things up really easily on the fly even when the auto detection is a bit off. Now, for tracks that are transitioning through tempos, you will find that if you put some grid markers on crucial spots, you can very easily adjust the tempo between each grid marker pair, and it only lets you end up with tempos that line up the grid to the transient peaks, it's genius imo and i think with a little tweaking it's going to get perfect. Also, if you have an S4 for example you can use the grid button and line up a faulty auto detection really fast, or you can map shortcuts to your keyboard or devices for removing adding and tweaking grid markers. The new system makes wrapping/quantising older tracks in Ableton unnecessary and is a delight in transition tracks, where with a little prep you can mix those tracks with anything that mixes with that fast or slow part of the track while having perfect sync.

Just keep in mind that, if you have more than one grid markers in a track, traktor can have a new tempo (that is quickly adjustable) for the rest of the file (or until the next marker) after every marker. And also, between every pair of markers, the tempo can only be adjusted to have a number of entire beats (while previously you could have a new beat marker after 3,42 beats for example). It's the same philosophy as with most DAWS, it's more of a tempo map system and less of a "here lies a downbeat" system. I get your frustration but if you just use the grid panel or some shortcuts you're going to realise it's much better. As for the downbeat thing which is probably an oversight or the rush to get the new version out, it can be fixed with just an extra button in the grid panel, that also makes a grid marker a "first beat" marker, or a simple setting that makes every grid marker a downbeat marker as well, and I'm pretty sure that's going to be there soon.

Too bad that the videos about the changes are not explaining everything and are just advertising the new features without a proper guide.

John6

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/169828#Comment_169828

Question 1. In TP4, Have you taken a new track, analyzed it, and TP4 created in incorrect Grid marker? If so have you then tried to move it? or change to another position?

Probably not because you cant lol.

The point is, its not mappable and its unmovable. Only option is to delete it if it is incorrect.

Question 2. You wrote "A grid marker doesn't have a hotcue assigned to it, and even if you enable that in settings for the autogrid cue, it just drops a grid/tempo marker where the program detects it best, as well as a hotcue on the same spot, but the grid marker and the hotcue (number 1 for new files) are two different markers.

Where exactly in "setting" does it give the option for Autogrid Cue?

Hint - It doesn't. That functionality is a result of "Analyze" which drops a White/Grey Grid Marker where it feels it should go. And its only 1 White/Grey Grid marker (not 2)

Listen I get that your excited abt the new functionality. You described it quite well.

But thats not what this thread is about.

saradis

Dude, it's totally movable, there are literally ARROW BUTTONS that do that on the grid panel, just like there used to be.

Also. you can map two buttons for the "Move grid marker" command (one for inc one for dec) and do it fast from your keyboard if you don't feel like finding the butons with the mouse.

And since in most electronic steady tempo tracks id the analysing is off it's because the hi hat has a sharper transient than the kick, so the grid is usually off by half a beat, you can press the 1 button to go to that hotcue, have one button mapped for deleting hotcue, two buttons for going back/forth half a beat and, one buton for dropping a new grid marker (which is always useful), and maybe one more to lock analysis on this track. This will take you about 2 seconds for each track.

The setting for also dropping a Hotcue for the autogrid marker is one of the 5 settings in the analyze options tab, it's not hidden, it's where it used to always be.

Also, you can just map a single button for the "set grid marker" and the "set cue and store as next hotcue commands" which will literally ad a new grid marker as well as the next available hotcue number on the same spot with one key press.

Just because you were using the grid panel in a single (and time consuming) way, it doesn't mean the grid system changed as much as you think it did. And if you just want to be stubborn and keep working in the way that TP2 worked in 2011, YOU CAN DO THAT TOO.

Just fire up a 3.* version, make a new controller mapping for a button, for the Cue type selector command (Button/Direct/Device Target/Grid), and then export that mapping page and import it in TP4. It is functional, I've tested it, but you shouldn't make changes to that row in the future because you can't change it back to "Grid" in the cue type. But it works, and everytime you press that button it also adds a grid marker on the same spot as that hotcue, even while the track is playing, just like the old way.

And there are probably 4 or 5 more ways to solve your "problem" that maybe someone else can come up with. They didn't "decapitate" any feature, they just gave us more tools. And I'm not as enthusiastic as you think, my brain hurts when I see bold grid markers that are on the 2nd 3rd or 4th beat of a bar, but I'm sure this will be solved it's just an annoyance and doesn't affect your set.

John6

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/169914#Comment_169914

Repeat,

You CANNOT move the White Grid header. The arrows do not move it. The arrows move a separate marker but its NOT the White TP3 GRID marker.

I already found my solution using "Load" to set the Grid. Its no big deal for me.

But this is gonna be a mess with folks coming from TP3 who spent the last decade using the White "Grid" option to set their grids.

Beta testers should have fought this tooth and nail bc no one is going to understand this. Do beta testers lack experience of the usability of TP3? Sure looks that way to me.

The last thing NI needs is a boatload of confusion with TP4, challenging users in the way they've used TP3 for the last Decade.

You wrote - "Just fire up a 3.* version, make a new controller mapping for a button, for the Cue type selector command (Button/Direct/Device Target/Grid), and then export that mapping page and import it in TP4. It is functional, I've tested it, but you shouldn't make changes to that row in the future because you can't change it back to "Grid" in the cue type. But it works, and everytime you press that button it also adds a grid marker on the same spot as that hotcue, even while the track is playing, just like the old way."

I've bolded your statement where it's going to be a huge problem for literally everyone coming from TP3.

Basically you've created a work around.

saradis

Look man, the white grid is no longer a beatgrid cue, that's what you obviously don't get, it's just a plain hotcue and it is still white by omission, and there is a grid marker right underneath it. THE GRID CHANGES when you use the buttons, and i thought your problem was bad grid detection but you obviously just want to move around your hotcues and that has nothing to do with the tempo or the beatgrid.

Also, the load marker literally changes nothing in either the tempo of the track or the beatgrid, if you have snap enabled it will be on the beat, if not it will be anywhere you put it. It does not affect anything related to tempo or phase or grid whatsoever. So i really don't understand what you fix with that.

The workaround was for your specific problem, at least what I thought the problem was. And all you have to do is add one line to the mapping page and just never change that line again, it's like ticking 3 boxes and keeping them ticked. There are literally dozens more things you can do with the new system. You just have a specific workflow and you somehow expect a program that is used in lots of different ways and scenarios to keep having new features but not changing anything. That's not how programming and development works.

John6

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/169968#Comment_169968

You - Look man, the white grid is no longer a beatgrid cue, that's what you obviously don't get, it's just a plain hotcue and it is still white by omission, and there is a grid marker right underneath it. THE GRID CHANGES when you use the buttons, and i thought your problem was bad grid detection but you obviously just want to move around your hotcues and that has nothing to do with the tempo or the beatgrid.

Me - So let me get this straight, there's a magical grid marker located directly underneath White Beat Grid marker (btw this is already a disaster) that changes when you use the Button? Uh, what button are you talking abt exactly??

You - THE GRID CHANGES when you use the buttons

Me - Again, what buttons are you talking about exactly? The "Set Gridmarker" Button?

You - I thought your problem was bad grid detection but you obviously just want to move around your hotcues and that has nothing to do with the tempo or the beatgrid.

Me - My problem IS poor or faulty beat detection.

You - Also, the load marker literally changes nothing in either the tempo of the track or the beatgrid, if you have snap enabled it will be on the beat, if not it will be anywhere you put it. It does not affect anything related to tempo or phase or grid whatsoever. So i really don't understand what you fix with that.

Me - OK NOW I DO SEE if I reanalyze the track WITHOUT "Set Beat Grid" in the analyze drop down box, It resets the entire track anew. (aka no grid). AND I CAN create a new White (Grey) "Beat Grid" wherever I want. So thanks for that. But it frustrating that slot 1 is the only option. Personally I use slot 8 for White Grid markers.

You - Also, you can just map a single button for the "set grid marker" and the "set cue and store as next hotcue commands" which will literally ad a new grid marker as well as the next available hotcue number on the same spot with one key press.

Me - Using this method, are you able to place a Grey (White) Grid Marker in any slot (1 thru 8)?

Me - Hey im pretty well versed on DAWs. TP4 isn't going to be easily understood. Ive been at this for days with hardly any understanding.

Me - Thanks for helping ppl understand. Im hoping you continue to answer these questions.

ErikMinekus

The hot cues are now separate from the grid markers, so the white/grey cue is no longer a grid marker. You have to move the cue separately from the underlying grid marker, which you can do in the cue panel.

It's confusing that they left it the same color, instead of converting any "grid" cue to a normal cue, as it no longer has any special function.

For new tracks I would just set Preferences > Analyze Options > Automatic Markers to "Only Grid Marker" and set the hot cue yourself. That option has been there since Traktor Pro 1, it used to be called "Store Beatmarker as Hotcue".

saradis

So let me get this straight, there's a magical grid marker located directly underneath White Beat Grid marker (btw this is already a disaster) that changes when you use the Button? Uh, what button are you talking abt exactly??

The buttons are two arrows (left and right) on the set grid marker button in the grid panel. As I mentioned before, you can also map every little thing you can imagine as well as combinations of buttons on your keyboard or controller and work way way faster than before.

My problem IS poor or faulty beat detection.

It's not that faulty when the track has stable bpm, I wrote in the previous message the most common fault that every autogrid algorithm makes sometimes with the hihat transient, and a quick solution for that.

OK NOW I DO SEE if I reanalyze the track WITHOUT "Set Beat Grid" in the analyze drop down box, It resets the entire track anew. (aka no grid). AND I CAN create a new White (Grey) "Beat Grid" wherever I want. So thanks for that. But it frustrating that slot 1 is the only option. Personally I use slot 8 for White Grid markers.

You definitely don't have to do that, just map a key/controller button for deleting the existing grid marker (or do it with the mouse) and map another key/controller button to drop a new grid marker (and make that same button also assign the next available hotcue, but I don't think it will be white). Also, if you move the grid marker after doing that, the hotcue doesn't move with it, remember, they are completely separate entities. You can have a track with 0 or 100 grid markers, and 0 to 24 hotcues, and those have no correlation. And for tracks with a steady tempo, mapping some keys to jump 1/2 a beat back and forth (while the deck is stopped) will help you correct bad detections really fast.

Again, if you just want the ability to color your hotcues, it is a very fair ask and it could be just that simple request on its own. If you fiddle around a bit you'll see it's much more versatile separating the hotcue and grid markers ecosystems. Only real and fair complaints I see are coloring the hotcues and the fact that the grid is now always 4/4 from the first marker to the end of the song.

Thanks for helping ppl understand. Im hoping you continue to answer these questions.

Very happy to help, we can also arrange a call via dms and I can help you find simple ways to do most things you can think of, because I think you're letting a non-issue get to your head, and there are solutions that are not just hacks or workarounds, it's just about knowing your toolbox and using it to enhance your workflow.

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