The Sheer Joy of 3.10.2
Comments
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If you need to ask why NI is scanning plugins - you haven't been paying any attention to the last 7 pages of this thread.
There is no concept of "not" scanning at this time. This process is part of using Komplete Kontrol or Maschine etc until NI changes it. Asking why falls on deaf ears.
VP
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Good to hear that your scan is picking up (as I suspected) by removing some of the load.
That said - it remains a tad frustrating how you keep dancing around my questions about what hardware, what OS, what disk types etc you are using so I could at least get a baseline on any "potential" for you having a better or worse scan.
All I can say on this is my scan times went from 5mph→100mph by upgrading to a 2024 CPU, DDR5 RAM and having everything on very modern NVMe drives. I was at roughly a 2 minute scan two years ago with 1138 plugins and now it's 5 seconds.
Granted - I did ditch ALL my VST2 plugins, cut WAY back on ****** I never use and only allow NA to scan VST3s but my times are like night and day in Komplete Kontrol anyway (using the same v2.9.6 that I have always used).
Kontakt 7 (v7.10.3) opens instantly here so there is no simply no time whatsoever for any scan that I can see. Still cannot confirm or deny one is even happening since the app opens in 1-2 seconds.
VP
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@ Vocalpoint
Not dancing around in the slightest, I posted my computer system on page 8 but here it is again….
My system is Windows 10, Dual 8 core Xeons, 48 GB DDR3 RAM, 750 GB SCSI SSD, 3 x 3TB SCSI 7200 HD
You don't seem to understand that the opening of these programmes should not be an issue nor dependent on what or how many plugins you have or whether you are on the fastest system available.
Before this opening scan was introduced, things were opening fine apart from the long-standing Maschine scanning bug on a first generation i7 with 8GB RAM.
As I keep saying, all other programmes have no issues, so NI have no excuses. They can either fix the issue or allow us to kill it. There's no way what is happening, is solely on my system as the Kontakt people will attest, though at 3 minutes and twenty seconds, mine is the slowest so far I think.
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"My system is Windows 10, Dual 8 core Xeons, 48 GB DDR3 RAM, 750 GB SCSI SSD, 3 x 3TB SCSI 7200 HD"
Got it. And thank you for the hardware listing
At least I am beginning to understand why your scans are slow.
Unfortunately - DDR3 RAM (2007-2013) and any sort of rust spinner HDD (SCSI or otherwise) or even a SSD based system drive will never keep up with a modern NMVe system. I can see now why your scans are much longer than mine and most others reporting issues.
I will also glean that if you are running DDR3 RAM - your 8 Core XEONS are most likely LGA2011 and date from somewhere in 2012-2014 era as well - which is simply not a CPU that has any chance of competing here in 2024 with even some of the most modest Intel i5/i7 13th/14th/15th gen chips.
I have two servers here which are very similar era (Haswell 2014) , LGA2011, same general 4-8 core Xeons (just a single socket not dual) and 32GB of DDR3 EEC on board. These old timers are just barely hanging on for basic server duties and will be retired soon.
Honestly - to really compare scan speeds with any sort of fair baseline - we would need to see what your layout would do if it your system drive was 100% NVMe on a modern PCIe5 motherboard - powered by a modern 2024 era CPU.
Now that I understand your hardware (because I own a couple just like it) - it is a bit unfair to be running a rig based on 2012-14 era tech and then justify your lack of "scan" speed by blaming the result solely on the software. (Software that did not even exist when your parts were new)
There are base system requirements to use these tools (Kontakt 7's entry level base CPU requirement is a 2023-24 Intel i5 Core i5 or equivalent CPU ) - apologies but your stuff is ancient when compared with these published minimums.
I 100% agree with you that these "scanners" are not as optimal as they could be and NI certainly has room for improvement but nothing they do is going to improve your experience with that specific hardware.
I am going to check out here on this thread. I am now convinced that the differences here between my scan times and yours are firmly based on our hardware choices. (And of course our installed plugin counts)
I wish you continued success and hope that NI will make an attempt to make this better in the future.
VP
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That can't be the solution. I wont NI let dictate how much plugins I'm allowed to install. That's ridiculous.
Neither to update to a 2024 CPU. Kontakt 6 works perfectly and there aren't THAT many new features that would justify the need for a new CPU upgrade. Again, ridiculous.
Just for perspective, my specs: i9 9900X @3.5 GHz (10/20 cores), 96GB of RAM, 13 SSDs (NVMs and regular).
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Stevie
No one is dictating anything here - install whatever you want. Or however many you want.
But logically - the more these scanners have to plow thru - the slower it will get. Can't really get around that.
And - K6 is retired. Whatever it was doing (back in the day) is irrelevant.
K7 is a different animal and requires different resources. Nothing "we" can do about that - like it or not.
You look like you have some awesome hardware - what are your scan times like?
VP
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@ Vocalpoint
You just don't listen, do you. As I said, my opening times were fine until they introduced this scanning and still were on a 1st gen i7.
No other software I use has a problem running on it. Not everyone has the ability or even want to run on the latest systems, Many professionals only update their rigs every 8 -10 years and for very good reason. Some are even running on Windows 7 for some things.
There is no good reason as far as I can see to introduce this scanning and the scanning itself isn't working as intended or, it wouldn't keep scanning the same plugs over and over again.
Most peoples installations worked fine before its introduction, so why not let users choose not to have it, if it's not going to benefit them then there's no plus points for anyone is there.
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When I see threads like this, it means I will still stay on NA1, but Ive been waiting for over a year to update it.
@tempsperdu - Im sorry if this is a dumb question but what exactly do you mean by "They were working OK until the introduction of this scan at start"
Perhaps I need to go back and re-read this thread to try and figure out what the deal is with all this scanning. Can anyone tell me how K7 is different to K6 with scanning. I have K14 UCE and an iZotope suite. Overall when I open recent Logic projects I have noticed the plugins loading/scanned time has increased a bit. This could be that Im using more NI stuff, or that Ive recently updated OS to Ventura. Once the project is up I don't notice any scanning in KK or K7 if I load new instruments. I have both K6 and 7. As for NA2, I have zero practical knowledge of it but from what I can see it doesn't give me a lot to hope for.
Ive still got an unresolved issue with Massive, scanning everytime I load it, iirc sometimes above 4 minutes. Went back and forth with support sending gifs/screenshots/numerous explanations, who in the end just dropped off the radar and its still not fixed. All that faffing around for nothing. As such its an instrument I'm not using.
Any problem including ridiculous scan times, that grinds a persons system down to the point of being either seriously slow or unusable, is a serious issue. PLAIN and SIMPLE. The forum has been absolutely loaded with complaints well beyond this time last year. These are not just mere little annoyances, these are STUPID problems from buggy software unfit for purpose and its been going on and on and on. When a person cant even install what they've purchased for days on end, or suddenly their whole libaray is nuked because of some dodgy update then that is totally unacceptable.
As far as I can see by far the most problem is NA and this NTK Daemon thing. Like many others, I'll keep saying it. WHAT IS THIS THING DOING??? Why does it have to be perpetually active when we are not even on NA. If NI wont be transparent and tell us what this thing is doing ON OUR COMPUTERS then EXPECT people to be suspicious. It is also unacceptable to be using precious resources, whilst doing who knows what? Its not good enough either to be told to just suck it up because NI doesn't have to tell us.
I totally agree, We should have the ability to TURN THIS NTKDaemon thing OFF. Why does it need to be active/scanning all the time? Once we've activated our software that should be the end of it until we update it or purchase something else. And for something many of us dont require often (NA) thats all the more reason this thing needs turning off.
People who've paid their honest dollars have every right to be infuriated by the endless issues that hold up their work, sometimes for weeks and the abysmally slow drawn out process of going to and fro with support.
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@tempsperdu - Im sorry if this is a dumb question but what exactly do you mean by "They were working OK until the introduction of this scan at start"@tempsperdu - Im sorry if this is a dumb question but what exactly do you mean by "They were working OK until the introduction of this scan at start"
AFAICS the four main NI programmes, NA2, Kontakt. Komplete Kontrol and Maschine now rifle through your VST3 folder before becoming usable. It seems to have problems with some plugins, so it endlessly rescans them.
Why?
No-one will say, the programme either does this itself, in concert seemingly with the NTK Daemon, or the NTK Daemon solely.
Not at all sure when this was introduced, and some claim this activity is not taking place with their installation.
So we don't know why it is doing it, we don't know why some don't seem to be affected, and no-one that can do something about it seems to really care………………………………
So we are all in the dark and a tad furious. It's far from an optimal relationship between company and users, some might say.
Sorry to hear about your issues with Massive, I have to admit that to date I haven't had any issues there.
You could try running Process Monitor when it opens to try and work out what is going on.
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Okay, I'm totally mystified how I can get the following performance on my Windows 10 computer which is just a measly ASUS i7-6700 @ 3.40GHz with 16 GB of memory and can get the following performance numbers on NA 3.10.3 and Komplete Kontrol 3.2.1 when these other much more powerful Windows computers are lagging so much. Granted all my disk drives are SSD, but still…
Native Access (after scanning completes in background) - 8 seconds.
Komplete Kontrol Load Time - 3 seconds
Komplete Kontrol standalone load time of Ashlight, All Is Lost preset - 8 seconds
Komplete Kontrol load of 8DIO non fully NKS compatible library (Intimate Studio Brass, 17.1 MB) loaded via File Open - 18 seconds.
Everything works as expected from NI except for specific known problems like the sustain pedal issue on my S88MK3.
Granted I have done some background work on making sure Windows Defenders' antimalware backend task is disabled or excluded for my libraries as I've previously posted, but even when using these libraries in a DAW (Ableton Live) the performance numbers are only marginally impacted depending on how many instruments I'm using, but the max is generally 8 instruments and my load times are always under a minute.
From what I've experienced I've encountered no extraordinarily long load times due to any of the Native Instruments libraries or even 3rd party libraries due to Native Instruments. Windows antimalware process, on the other hand…….
Maybe you guys might have some insight why everything works for me and not for you?
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Here are my load times against yours:
OS = Windows 10 22H2 (Build 19045.4291)
VST3 Plugin Count = 369 (Using Studio One Plugin Manager)
Native Access (v3.10.3) (Single click on the icon to ready state. 125/293 items installed) = 1.8 secs
Komplete Kontrol Standalone (v2.9.6) (Single click on the icon to ready state) = 4.2 secs
Komplete Kontrol Standalone (v2.9.6) (Ashlight - All Is Lost preset via S61 MKII Load button) = 1.3 secs
Kontakt 7 (v7.10.1) Standalone (From a single click on the icon to ready state on screen) = 1.3 secs
Kontakt 7 (v7.10.1) Standalone ("Files" load of Samplelogic - Arpology Cinematic Dimensions - biggest non NKS I have here at 23.5 GB) = 2.95 secs
Komplete Kontrol Standalone (v2.9.6) ("Files" load of Samplelogic - Arpology Cinematic Dimensions - biggest non NKS I have here at 23.5 GB) = 3.32 secs
Hardware:
Motherboard
ASUS Prime z790-A
Chipset
Intel z790
BIOS
1601
CPU
Intel Core™i5 13600K (LGA1700)
Memory
Corsair Vengeance LPX 64GB (2x32GB) (CMK64GX5M2B5600C40)
Graphics
Intel UHD Graphics 770
HD1 - System (C:\)
Samsung 990 PRO M.2 (NVMe) (1TB)
HD2 - Data (D:\)
Samsung 870 EVO SATA (SSD) (500GB)
HD3 - Libraries (L:\)
Samsung 970 EVO Plus M.2 (NVMe) (2TB)
All I can logically glean from the deltas between your load times and mine - are raw horsepower (CPU) and disk throughput (SSD vs the Sammy 990 Pro - which just smokes) AND that it seems your KK scan times are actually faster (KK 3.2.1) vs my (v2.9.6) scoring.
VP
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Maybe you guys might have some insight why everything works for me and not for you?
This is the big problem, as if it affected everybody, it would be easier to spot, and they would have less excuse to feel they can ignore it.
Some of it does appear to be what plugins you have, but even that isn't consistent, as some have the same UAD plugins that I have, yet have no issues.
It really would help if they'd actually discuss what the supposed purpose of this scan is and stop making matters worse and more suspicious by refusing to comment on it.
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I'm not sure how it would be my plugins. I have roughly the same number of NI fully compliant plugins (200) from both NI along with other 3rd party vendors such as Heaviocity, Spitfire, Luftrum, Impact Soundworks, etc. as I do 8dio plugins (240) most of which are not fully NI compliant are enormous in comparison to NI, particularly the full orchestras and Choirs, but they all load the same.
The scan I refer to is an integral process of Windows Defender or as some know it Windows Security known as 'antimalware' which is a process you can examine using the Task Manager Performance tab when loading any app or library and is part of the Virus & Protection portion of Windows Defender if you open up it's main interface.
If you run Windows Defender on Windows and examine the Process tab on the Task Manager program, when you load a fully compliant library in Kontakt or Komplete Kontrol you'll see the process antimalware pretty much dominating all the processing time while Kontakt or Komplete Kontrol are barely getting any processing priority until antimalware finishes it's scan. As best I can tell it seems to be looking for some indications of malware so it can alert you, but that's really not necessary with Kontakt or KK because you know what it's loading which are samples that are part of the library.
Within Windows Defender you have the option of completely turning off Real Time Threat Protection, but that's probably not wise as it gets applied in many situations that potentially could be damaging. But there are provisions in Defender for adding or removing these checks on specific files or libraries. With NI it's pretty easy because you can simply apply a Folder exclusion to your Program Files/Native Instruments folder which will disable the antimalware scanning on all standard compliant NI plugins. For some things like 8Dio you have to do it on a library by library basis depending on where you have that library stored. If you exclude the top named library such as the Zeus drum library, you exclude it's top level file folder such as ../8Dio Drum Series - Zeus to defeat scanning because that library can't be added to Native Access as it's not a NI fully compatible library and can only be run by selecting it's main program file and loading it into Kontakt, KK.
The one fly in the ointment in this approach is with DAWs. I use Ableton Live and excluding the main program library for Ableton doesn't have the same effect as excluding NI's main library and I've yet to track down what executables files would need to be excluded to avoid the problems, so at present I'm just turning off the Real Time Protection under the Virus and Threat Protections section of Defender while working in the DAW if I'm using non compliant libraries in that project and turn it back on when I'm finished.
Obviously none of this is applicable if you're not using Windows Defender or are using an alternative security program. But if so, it would probably be well worth your time to run Task Manager and examine what's happening in the Performance tab to see what processes are heavily using your CPU time when loading your libraries. That's what lead me to finding these solutions.
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Nice one.
Can’t imagine why I did not mention this as well.
I also found that Defender was getting in my way and I set it to ignore everything to do with all DAW related plugs,apps and libraries and noticed a dramatic decrease in load times. Especially with Komplete Kontrol.
VP0 -
1. it doesn’t make sense that Kontakt scans plugins in the first place. Kontakt doesn’t make use of any plugins. Kontakt is NOT a plugin host. Why would it scan thru all of them? Kontakt 6 doesn’t do it, Kontakt 7 does.
This issue is in the code.2. Removing all plugins from their respective folders speeds up K7, but not completely.
3. if it was Defender related, then every DAW would be affected when scanning plugins.
Without the intention to boast: I was the guy who brought up Process Monitor. I consecutively posted my findings here:
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