Kontrol S88 MK3 dead/failing keys
Hi all,
Has anyone else had problems with dead/dying keys on their S88 Mk3? My original unit arrived with a dead key, and I was eventually able to get the unit replaced. Now a couple of months later, the G3 key on this one is failing. It misreads velocity and aftertouch, and occasionally completely fails to register a key press.
Just wondering if I've been very unlucky, or if others are seeing the same issue (hopefully not). Maybe whatever enhancement they made to support poly aftertouch has problems that still need to be worked out.
Thanks!
Comments
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Got my S88MK3 in January. No dead or failing keys on mine. May be a hardware issue on yours.
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Also got mine in January, also have no dead or failing keys.
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Oh, what a surprise!!!
Had this discussion and got shot down from Native instruments reps, stating that the Keybed was the exact same, and would have the same issues as the S88 MK2 has, with things like clicky keys, dead keys, quality control.
But was assured all these problems would be fixed, with the (redesign), with the MK3…. Seems like it was ait'se, I feel for you, its a lot of money to pay for a keybed/controller. Totally unacceptable!!
They should have picked a different Keybed.Manufacturer than Fatar.
Keys presses missing or failing inputs, means whoever fitted the Velocity membrane has not fully inserted all the rubber nipples correctly, leaving an un-even gap. it's an easy fix, but you should not be expected to open up your brand-new unit.
Get in-touch with NI support and request a NEW! replacement. Do not let them send you a Re-Conditioned one!!! as that is their replacement policy!!
The folk over in Germany who recondition these, are nothing to do with Native instruments, it's just a massive company who repair devices in bulk for all different companies. I am sure the people working here, do not care about what they are building, and are working on a production line.
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LOL… Fatar makes fantastic keybeds and trusted by top synth manufacturers for decades including Sequential/Dave Smith, Novation, Kurzweil, Waldorf, Hartmann Neuron, etc. for their premium synths. The manufacturing by N.I. is separate from the keybed pieces delivered to NI from Fatar. Zero issues with keys on my Mk1 (S49), Mk2 (S61, S88), Mk3(S61; S88).
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It's not uncommon with any new product to have issues early in the production run. I did think of that before I placed my order last October. I figured a keyboard controller wasn't that big a risk, as it isn't as complex as as a hardware synth. Clearly I was wrong. Two bad units in a row. The issues I've seen are with the Fatar keybeds, which have an otherwise good reputation. These are a new version, with poly aftertouch, so some glitches probably shouldn't be a surprise. The first keyboard had issues over the holidays, and it took a month to get a replacement. Hopefully this time it won't be so long, and the third one will be of better quality.
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But still, there were quite a constant stream of reports of the same issues with the MK2 as detailed above. Fantastic keybed or not, the version for the MK3 had some issues for some users, enough of the same issue for it to be well known.
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To be clear here: This is still the TP100 keybed (same as the MK2) with the addition of a polyphonic aftertouch, instead of the normal aftertouch strip. The guts are the exact same, the action, keys, hammers are all identical.
Why am I so sour towards it, because NI knew of all the reports from the MK2, and did nothing to address any of the design flaws. They added a big screen, a new Poly Aftertouch strip.
I just wish the grease would last longer than a year. Clicky plastic, key on post noise you get.
It's a 3-hour job to do a regrease of all the keys and posts. I really don't know why Fatar (supposedly world class maker of key-beds) did not decide to design a grease trap with in the white keys!!
At-least the black keys have a nice square hole where the grease can build up and sit there.
But the white keys have a massive space, so the grease can go anywhere it wants to, over the course of a year. Eventually it just makes its way to the bottom of the key. Then any lateral movement of the key, you start to feel and hear it hit the internal post. click click!!
And for the OP's issue, it's a pain to get the velocity membrane right, if you ever decide you need to clean the contacts with alcohol, be prepared to open your keybed up 3-4 times, as trying to get every key to register the same velocity, it's hard, there must be a knack to fitting those strips, so that every contact is perfect. push those nipples in too much or too little, and you're in for some serious deviations in velocity from key to key. lol
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Of course, however this is more likely a fault with NI manufacturing, than the Fatar keybeds in general. I've never had an issue in what, 25 years, with any Fatar keybed across dozen top manufacturers. My comment was directed at the "should have used something other than Fatar" (like what exactly?). I've had Roland and lower end Korg keybeds fail consistently. Not the Fatar mid-top end stuff. In my case I did have two returns for the pitch/mod wheel placement on my S88 mk3. Third one was the charm. So, this again points to an issue in assembly and placement of parts, not the parts themselves.
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Granted, Fatar may have shipped a bunch of ****** to NI. Still, realllllllly wish we got the Tp/40 in the mk3. I have that on my Kurzweil PC3K8 (and on prior kit) and it's really nice and still flawless 10 years later. I used to joke I was going to transplant that into the S88mk2. Still, the lighter touch for the Tp/100 is preferable for most folks who don't actually play piano (I have a Yamaha U3).
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I watched this vid a couple of weeks ago, seeing how much testing etc is done at Fatar is quite nice to know.
He gets to the factory at 3:30 and if that bit doesn’t interest you, start from 7:30
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Yeah that is a fair point. I have no in-depth experience on keybeds myself, I find the S61 I have (of course different from the S88) to be a great feeling keybed and have never had an issue at all through the MK1 and MK2 keyboards I have owned so only have good things to say about them myself.
The main common issues I have seen is that "clicky" issue which crops up on some keyboards after time where I think lubrication wears off a part of the keys, and occasional reports of either dead or low sensitivity keys but that could easily be something falling into the key sensor. Most other issues are as you pointed out, mod wheels, inconsistent feeling of the encoders and the dual screens having a brightness mismatch with one being brighter than the other (which even my keyboard has but it's not an issue for performance).The other point is none of these issues In would say are major signs of problems just based on the low numbers of reports over the years from what I have seen.
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I've posted a similar issue on the "other hardware" channel and awaiting a reply.
I’ve noticed the A#/Bb3 key on my lovely S61 MK3 keyboard has lost all its firmness and resistance and for lack of a better word is ‘slumped’ compared to the other black keys i.e. it is sitting lower than the rest. ☹️
The key still works, at the moment, but feels limp and lifeless as it lacks that resistance and tension and travels less when pressed. As far as I can tell aftertouch still works. But doesn't feel great to the touch especially when playing chords and is very off putting.
I’m not sure how it happened as l’ve only had it out the box about half a dozen times since buying it in January when I’ve had a day spare over the weekends. Even then I've hardly used the keyboard as I’ve been busy preset surfing and tagging my favourites. And when not in use it goes back in its box with all its original packaging to keep it protected. If I’d had it a few years I would put it down to wear and tear. I’ve not even experienced this issue with any of my other synths and midi keyboards ranging all the way up to 40 years old so it is not my playing style.
Although it may seem a minor issue to some; I am worried the issue will worsen and at some point the key will stop working all together (probably the day after the warranty expires).
As the keyboard cost too much to overlook the issue, in addition to posting on this community I have also contacted the retailer I purchased it from to see if I can get it repaired or replaced as it should still be under warranty,
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My concern is that the issue is a result of a manufacturing defect that hasn't been identified and corrected yet, and when I receive my third S88 Mk3, it will only be a matter of time before a key on that one fails as well.
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Keys do not fail:
On the s88 models there are no springs, just hammers. So, the actual mechanism of the key does not fail.
Things that can happen:
- the key can come out of its holder (connection to the Hammer mechanism) - this is an easy fix, just push the key towards the back of the keybed until you hear a click! Simple, no disassembly required (very rare for this to happen)
- The grease can wear out over time 1-2 years. Keys become noisy and clicky. Action feels looser. until you re-grease all the keys and posts (3-hour job). Not very difficult, after the first time.
- Dead keys can come from the Velocity membrane. These are replaceable or just require Alcohol cleaning of the contacts under the Velocity membrane. (Easy job, but can be dificult to get the membrane nipples in their holes, and then all to be even. Result can be having a variance of velocity from key to key). This usually takes me 1-2 tries to get it right. And after watching the video, posted above, I see that they actually program the variances in to the key beds, hence why you will never get it perfect. If this also applies to the TP100 (I am doubtful, as this appears to be the cheapest version out of all the Fatar models. I really can't see it being treated the same as some of their higher end models, plus the Native instrument's keyboards are not assembled at Fatar, like models shown in the Video.
All of the above is fixable by your self, but if you are under warranty, I would advide you contact NI support for any of these issues.
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Only issue I had over the years is the little rubber bumper often used at back of the keys where a foldover metal case would sit "on top" of the back of the keys, and there is little rubber strip - like the antistatic strips used on PCs. Right side started to perish and my highest note octave would get rattlely on the bounce of keys going back up/down. Replacing the strip solved it. I think that was my Hartmann Neuron, if my rusty brain remembers correctly. Back of keys would hit the rubber strip and at end of life was like hitting metal. Hopeful the S88mk3 survives my actual use.
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