PWM flicker pads on Maschine MK3

Johny Thai
Johny Thai Member Posts: 7 Member
edited October 2024 in Maschine

Hello everyone!

I have this question about Maschine MK3. Do all revisions have PWM control for the backlight of the pads? This can be easily checked with the "pencil test". For example, on my Maschine MK3 Mikra, there is no flickering, but on Maschine MK3 there is flickering .... This is still clearly visible when you quickly play on the pads.

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Answers

  • JesterMgee
    JesterMgee Member Posts: 3,366 Expert

    Think you will find all Maschine/Complete products have the same kind of "flickering", while it may not appear in the test you do, the way LEDs in most products are controlled if they have to DIM would be PWM.

    Not only this but in order to allow USB power only for a device crammed with more LEDs than a Christmas tree and also screens, audio etc multiplexing is used which will sequentially power LEDs so that at any micro second in time only a single LED is ever powered up, just does this extremely fast.

    The difference you see between the Micro and MK3 would simply be down to less other stuff to manage, no display, less LEDs and therefore more processor cycles to poll the LEDs on that controller = less flicker.

    I know some people can have a bit of a sensitivity to the polling lights but 99% of people out there will not notice or will manage just fine with it.

    ARe you using only USB power, flicker will be way more noticeable as there is less power available.

  • Johny Thai
    Johny Thai Member Posts: 7 Member
    edited February 2022

    Thanks for the detailed answer. But I would like to know from the owners of Maschine MK3 of different years of release whether PWM is present in all. By analogy, as in monitors, a lot depends on the revision.

  • Johny Thai
    Johny Thai Member Posts: 7 Member
    edited February 2022

    For example, I immediately notice the difference with and without flicker. The eyes have to strain more, and get tired of this.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,154 Expert

    I have tried Studio, Jam and several years old MK3. All use PWM and as Jester explains, one may expect PWM is used in electronic devices in most cases.

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,771 mod
    edited February 2022

    Wait... People can actually see the flickering with the naked eye? what kind of refresh rate do your eyes have? 😁

    I only notice it on camera; the Studio, Mk3, M+ and MM3 all look the same to me altho I used them all at 100% brightness most of the time maybe that's why I never noticed any difference in terms of seeing any flickering. Not sure what a "pencil test" is.


    BTW @Johny Thai your posts were formated as code, I guess it was by accident so I edited them.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,154 Expert

    I cannot see it under normal conditions. But one may recognize its stroscopic nature using fast moving pencil in the darkness and close to pads.....

    No problem for me, I have just tested it for @Johny Thai .

  • Johny Thai
    Johny Thai Member Posts: 7 Member

    @D-One

    Thank you for your reply.

    Yes, my messages looked strange and I don't know how it happened, thanks for the corrections.

  • Johny Thai
    Johny Thai Member Posts: 7 Member

    @Kubrak Thank you

  • Soulchecker
    Soulchecker Member Posts: 2 Newcomer
    edited April 2022
    https://youtu.be/XWpDLwLK4jU

    Same behaviour with Kopmplete Kontrol S. Don´t understand why this is not considerd by NI. All the cheapest chinese manufactures considering flicker free LEDs in their products. In a dark environment like many studios this is driving you crazy.

    Video is recorded with 60 frames/sec to visualize the PWM of Komplete Kontrol LEDs. It definively exists. MK1 was also with PMW but less visible. With MK2 the LEDs are more whitish now and with less diffusion as with MK1 Rubber-Buttons and Light Guide Diffusors. This design changes make it totally unusable also for me now.

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,154 Expert
    edited April 2022

    One thing is to recognize it on video or fast moving objects (like pencil).... And another thing to recognize by eyes....

    Most people are OK with 60 Hz and probably above 120 Hz noone is able to perceive it.

  • Johny Thai
    Johny Thai Member Posts: 7 Member
    https://youtu.be/Y89t9aT_bNA

    Unfortunately, my camera does not convey all the sadness, in reality everything is much worse. When you play on the pads, your fingers just triple ... and your eyes get tired.

  • Soulchecker
    Soulchecker Member Posts: 2 Newcomer
    edited April 2022

    Just search for the "Ferry Porter Law". It depends on different conditions. The luminance of the LED, the color, the environment lightning and the sensivity of the receptors of each individual human eye. So it is not unnormal to recognize frequencies up to 80Hz. Especially within the peripheral vision area. If one individual product manager does not recognize any flickering it does not mean that others won't recognize it, too. I just returned my Komplete Kontrol MK2 because of this flickering. But I am also able to recognize flickering on PWM driven Displays and Home lightning LEDs. With camera i can also see the flickering with MK1 but it does not feel as uncomfortable to me as with MK2.

  • Johny Thai
    Johny Thai Member Posts: 7 Member
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/12242#Comment_12242

    Why did you return the devices? eye discomfort?

  • Kubrak
    Kubrak Member Posts: 3,154 Expert

    @Soulchecker

    OK, it is not 60 Hz, it is 80 Hz that should suit most. And 120 Hz all, I guess. And technically PWM may use 1-2 kHz with ease.

    And now, which frequency has PWM NI uses? I cannot see flickering. Unless using finger test.

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,771 mod
    edited April 2022

    The real question is who's gonna bring out the oscilloscope and probe it to find out? 😁

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