Does the NI Forum Community Culture need a change?

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Comments

  • Milkman
    Milkman Member Posts: 277 Advisor
    edited December 2023

    Threads like these seem like "bubble" spaces with bubble topics in them, where people discuss grandiose community culture (retail space) issues outside the scope and reality of those actual issues.

    For example, if you just do a quick read of the forums (Ive been reading them regularly for 5-6 years as I just did today), you can easily see the dumpster fires, where they come from, how they happened, and what needs to happen to reduce them. If you read this thread, the OP and the actual comments from NI staff illustrate some other form of... cultural problem seen through the business/investor's eyes, not the customer's eyes.

    And again - 30+ year tech worker, one-time brand/social media manager, customer support manager here. Despite the obviousness of what is happening (100s of NI workers were fired a year or so back, a new investor came along), we have threads like these created by people who are arguably NI brand managers and/or people vying to become the next Chosen One on the forums, acting like its a culture issue (a customer issue) rather than an DISSATISFIED CUSTOMER(support and quality) issue.

    Need I link the threads, just the ones created in the last 2-3 days??? I know Im not the only one who sees this, or how often it happens, lol.

  • MyStudioOne
    MyStudioOne Member Posts: 283 Pro
    edited December 2023

    we have threads like these created by people who are arguably NI brand managers and/or people vying to become the next Chosen One on the forums, acting like its a culture issue (a customer issue) rather than an DISSATISFIED CUSTOMER issue.

    Since you called me out, I suppose I should say something. But I honestly cannot really be bothered to respond to your post in general, except to say that I am neither a NI brand manager nor a person vying to be a Chosen One. And there are other threads giving a voice to dissatisfied customers like you.

    I am just an every day forum member trying to engage in an interesting and dare I say meaningful discussion, something which you seem to have little to no interest in, judging by your contributions to this thread thus far. But you have made it clear that you are a dissatisfied customer. I hear you but alas, you are yet again in the same wrong place, just like last time.

  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,500 Expert
    edited December 2023

    Be careful guys: what you are doing is exactly what you say you don’t like.

    As soon as someone with a different opinion than yours appeared on YOUR thread (and showing his point of view without being an “obnoxious a-hole”), you are attacking him and telling him he doesn’t belong here, not discussing with him to understand his point of view…

    You can say how many times you want that “you want to know how things are seen and have different opinions to find a way to improve the “Culture””, but if this is how you react, the matter of fact is that those were only words.

    The best way to show you want things to improve, is to show it with facts. Not to tell it with words.

    I have not seen a “I don’t want to be the Chosen One. Tell me what made you think so, so I can understand what gave this impression ad improve”…only “I cannot be bothered to respond to your post”, “There are other threads for people like you”, “you are in the wrong place”…and NI people running to put a like to the ones on their same wavelength (thing that, imo, an administrator should avoid, being it made only to dislike the other poster comment), instead of recording another way to see things (which, btw, is not so unusual between forum members). THIS way of seeing things is what you have to work on, not the one already in line with your thoughts. If everybody was in line with your thoughts, this whole thread would not even be necessary at all.

    I’m not against anyone here. I’m in fact valuing both positions. Just pointing out that this behavior makes YOU look like you are against someone.

    So…my question is: is this thread meant to improve things for forum users (with all points of view taken in consideration) or just to set up things the way some want them to be? I ask this to try to understand if I’m interested in it or not

    You want to improve the forum? So you have to improve what makes the unsatisfied act in the wrong way, so they’ll start acting better (on 100 overstepping the line, only 3-5 of them are impolite people. All the others are exhausted users who, out of frustration, exaggerate). Not improve the already “perfectly behaving” ones (but…are they really so “perfectly behaving”?).

    Exaggerations have 2 way to be dealt with: one is to point out to the ones that are doing it that they are doing it. The other…is to remove the reasons that brought them to exaggerate. None of the 2 aspects should be omitted…

    Cooperativness is a strange beast: some may think that showing what is not working and what makes them feel frustrated could be cooperative. But if all these points of view are seen as uncooperative by the support staff, maybe the problem resides somewhere else…

  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,500 Expert
    edited December 2023
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/120628#Comment_120628

    You are exactly saying what I was trying to say: everyone is entitled to his opinion (and hopefully it gets taken in consideration).

    No need to tell him “you are in the wrong place, you don’t belong here”. He does.

    And…since you repeat it, I will too: yes, it has a lot to do with the quality of products and support! This is exactly the reason why so many frustrated users come here, instead of this being a forum where musician discuss about music and how to do things in a better way.

    As long as NI will have these kind of problems, as long as users will feel ignored, what users will want to discuss is these kind of problems. When well tested and working products will be given to users, happy users will come here to meet other happy users.

    This is my opinion. The fact that you deny it makes me fear that things in the forum won’t improve very soon. The maximum you’ll be able to do is to continue to close threads and ban people, which is not a solution to the problem, is just a remedy. Like when we were child: our moms putting a patch on the holes we made in our clothes by falling down wasn’t functional as them teaching us the wisdom that allows us not to fall down. It was just a patch to cover the problem

  • Matt_NI
    Matt_NI Administrator Posts: 1,130 admin
    edited December 2023

    @LostInFoundation Being respectful to others has nothing to do with products and support. If one can't express themselves without being rude and cursing then they shouldn't post here in the first place and I'll stand by that.

  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,500 Expert
    edited December 2023

    Not saying you are wrong. I am a respectful guy and don’t like bullies as much as you do (if not more). But I also know that the way to deal with bullies is not by telling them “you’re a bully” and punish them. This just makes them even more angry. You have to work on what makes them angry, or you won’t go anywhere. You just put the proverbial “patch on the problem”. And…as I said…not everyone misbehaving is a bully.

    Denying that anger is the fastway to misbehaviors is naïve.

    And the fastway to resolve misbehaving is remove anger. Only then you can start to teach someone how to properly behave ALSO when angry.

    These are basics of pedagogy

  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,500 Expert

    Or…even better…show them they are listened when they behave in the right way.

    E.g. by not letting all the requests and suggestions fall into the void for years, when they have a reason to be and they are asked in a polite way.

    Feeling ignored is another thing that easily transform a correct man into an angry man

  • Sunborn
    Sunborn NKS User Library Mod Posts: 3,099 mod
    edited December 2023
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/120622#Comment_120622

    A very insightful comment, one that i agree with it, even if the respond by Matt,

    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/120628#Comment_120628

    is also very correct.

    I, also see on the responds to Milkman's comment, that some folks seems to took it a bit personal. He could write it more clearly of course, but i got the feeling that it was just an informational comment.

    One note for StudioOne's comment about self-moderation:

    Self-moderation is not something standard for everyone. So it has a very basic value only. Different people from different cultures and different backgrounds and life experience have a very different approach to self-moderation.

    Simple example: We all can agree (i hope) on "do not kill" but we can not all agree on "do not smoke cannabis", since while on many countries is completely free, on many others is not, and few have even a death penalty! So, a common self-moderation on such matter it will be simply impossible.

    The above, is obviously an extreme example. Discussions on a music forum are by definition much less harmless, but still, is good to have that on mind. All are a matter of principles and (for good or bad) humanity does not share the same principles. In China they wear white on funerals, while in Greece they wear white in weddings...

    Self-moderation, also have degrees. While some can stay on a basic mode, some others can reach far deeper levels. There is no "right" or "wrong" on any approach, either superficial either deep, it is just what it is.

  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,500 Expert

    One more note to be clear: I’m not saying that people that misbehaved should not be corrected.

    What I’m discussing here is just the larger picture: do we simply want to put in place instruments that will allow to deal with the misbehaving better or do we want to diminish the number of misbehaviors?

    Both things are needed. My hope is just that the instruments will be there, but needed only in rare occasions.

    This will also allow moderators to have to spend less time dealing with these things, therefore having more time for more constructive things, therefore diminishing the rare occasions even more.

    It’s a spiral that will lead the forum to be REALY better, and not only “patched”

  • chk071
    chk071 Member Posts: 550 Pro
    edited December 2023
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/120631#Comment_120631

    These changes seem useful, but, I don't think that they really can address the issues stated in the OP. And, I don't think there's any solution for those either. It's a social problem, and it's a cultural problem, and, no one can do much about that. You see it in every single Western society, and, in an exaggerated form, in every internet forum.

    Even if you would do the actual right thing, and try to enforce the rules more strictly here, there'll immediately be people saying that that's an oppression of their right of speech, and their freedom. Especially the (rather politically left) musician community is like that. So, basically, whatever you do, it will be the wrong thing. I don't have much hope in that regard.

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