Does the NI Forum Community Culture need a change?

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  • nightjar
    nightjar Member Posts: 1,322 Guru
    edited December 2023

    I have no experience being a moderator... so maybe this is not practical or already a common thing:

    BUT.. if moderation is labor/time intensive...

    Keep flagging alive, but a single flag might be considered meaningless to an automated system of sorts

    Instead multiple flags (3 or 4) from different established users might send a notice to moderators that someone is being abusive in some fashion.

    A single person or two using flags as a personal vendetta won't trigger this notice to moderators.

    But 3-4 well-established users flagging a post as abusive might be a manageable thing for current level of moderation personnel.

  • Percivale
    Percivale Member Posts: 225 Pro
    edited December 2023

    I would say that this is one of the most toxic forum I've bothered to be still around. I stuck with it mainly to find news for Maschine's future. I've had my own share of encounters with folks who "who dares flag my post" and "I'm entitled therefore I am what I am" members. Just because you can does not mean you should. A majority are not like that, but allowing such behaviour to surface repeatedly and "get away" only serves to diminish the use of the forum and drive new members away.

    There are a no. of ways this forum can improve.

    1. Review the conditions of use (minimally is to exercise respect and common sense).
    2. Take prompt & decisive action against those who flout the conditions of use (do not hesitate to period suspend or perm ban recalcitrant offenders).
    3. Apply consistency when engaging users (and work behind the scenes).
    4. Keep at it for it will take time - an organic, self-regulating group does not occur overnight (the norms take time to evolve and take shape).

    Other considerations

    1. Dump the post-for-prize scheme.
    2. Go for a fresh start, move to a new platform that is easier for admin/moderators/members - check Elektron's platform. Build a positive and healthy community and the rest will come. Reverb drench it with loudest mouths or disrespectful members and the opposite it will be.
    3. Be transparent with users - the discord platform check-in was a good example. Voices can be heard on both camps for & against, so what was the verdict in the end.


  • LostInFoundation
    LostInFoundation Member Posts: 4,491 Expert

    Nice to see @Matt_NI engaged in this argument.

    I’m sure that if they work well (forum-wise and products-wise) the number of people like me underlining what’s not working correctly will decrease, as I suggested him in another post that he removed and for which he warned me with the “Stay on topic” motivation. Maybe things changed from yesterday.

    Until then, angry customers and posts listing what’s wrong like @Scoops one will be inevitable

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,580 mod
    edited December 2023

    Keep in mind that "moderation" can clearly be seen as censorship, I see both users complaining about too much moderation as I see not enough moderation depending on who you ask.

    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/118508#Comment_118508

    Usually, it's not labor intensive, as @Kymeia said this community is actually fairly well-behaved compared to more general music production forums, however, I do not know how it compares to other music company forums specifically. There is no custom trigger for more than X different flags, either the host has that built-in functionality or it's a no-go.

    If someone is really out of line the report button is what should be used as we get notified.


    @MyStudioOne said:

    I guess what I was trying to communicate is that there doesn't seem to be much of a Moderator presence. For example, there was at least 3 blowup incidents on the now closed thread which absolutely needed some moderation but there was none to be found.

    True, also depends on where you hang out tho. All of those 3 were in KK sub-forum, right? That says a lot... Right after a major release of SW/HW with controversial decisions that split passionate users up, this has a big impact on people's behavior... Happy campers VS angry/disappointed campers, each camp annoys the other.

    Looking at the bickering between the 2 it's hard to make a 'policing' decision based on "rules" and people with opposite views won't stop quoting each other, often it's 5/6 people derailing a thread with 60 different people commenting, some just go in and put fuel in the fire without even contributing with an opinion on the subject... :S

    The Admins have applications for new mods, if we are lucky perhaps one of them is active on K/KK sub-forum, ideally, it would be nice to have an active Mod in each main forum section. This would help solve the issue but it will never be perfect.

    Speaking for myself - Maschine is the product I own and understand the best so that's where I hang out, I don't have a KKS so reading through 100 pages of K/KK to make sure people are behaving is too much for volunteer work for me. The MAS forum is always clear with everything 'answered' and I doubt I would let that drama fly there as it did on the K/KK side.

    The latest drama was on a weekend, I saw it late Sunday but had tons of work and couldn't commit to a decision so waited for Monday when Matt is online. Good thing too because my decision would have been the exact opposite of his, not to say he was wrong it's just that moderation can be quite subjective as many people here mentioned.

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,580 mod
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/118481#Comment_118481

    That would involve paying attention to how thousands of people talk and/or go to each one's profile and checking for flags received or sent. We can't check for flags sent afaik, only for flags received if we notice it or if the user complains directly to us that he has received a spam of flags in a short period of time.

  • MyStudioOne
    MyStudioOne Member Posts: 283 Pro

    Keep in mind that "moderation" can clearly be seen as censorship, I see both users complaining about too much moderation as I see not enough moderation depending on who you ask.

    I totally understand what you are saying and your perspective as a moderator is appreciated, @D-One . We all know that finding that balance is easier said than done and moderators have lives too.

    Judging from a handful of posts I have read in the last few days, it is becoming more apparent to me that there is moderator to user communication going on in the background.

    And of course most of us "regulars" are capable of moderating ourselves BUT there is a certain level of frustration/exasperation that comes into play when your inbox is suddenly being filled with ****** between a few people who don't know when to quit. And that is maybe one of the few scenarios where the Moderators could step in I guess.

    But I also now understand the value/function of the "Report" flag. Considering my total ignorance about this until now, I would be surprised if I am alone in that regard. So I am looking forward to a post from @Matt_NI explaining this along with any other fine tuning measures that are being implemented to improve the overall dynamic.

    Cheers.

  • D-One
    D-One Moderator Posts: 3,580 mod
    edited December 2023

    Indeed, perhaps we are also a bit to blame for not explaining things with more detail so the regulars know better what to do in more extreme cases, basically people have been assuming how to report for a while.

  • Kymeia
    Kymeia NKS User Library Mod Posts: 5,025 mod

    Add a vote down, vote up, off topic reaction

    Personally I am not keen on those, I think they tend to increase forum acrimony

    I find it useful to see who liked my posts, obviously if there was a dislike/vote down though that should be anonymous or it would lead to even more acrimony

  • Matt_NI
    Matt_NI Administrator Posts: 1,130 admin
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/118689#Comment_118689

    Thanks for the feedback, anyone else feels this way about a vote down?

    It might be useful for self-moderation. With the right threshold, the comment would be buried after getting a specific amount of users clicking vote down. With that said, it might indeed increase negative emotions.

  • Kymeia
    Kymeia NKS User Library Mod Posts: 5,025 mod
    edited December 2023

    I think if you want a good example of a more positive culture in the NI forum the NKS User Library thread is a great example of how members of the community can work together respectfully and constructively to achieve common goals based around shared activities. I can think of similar threads such as the Reaktor ensembles for Maschine+ thread (and indeed on the whole the Reaktor forum is a very friendly and helpful place). Maybe the best approach is to model good practice rather than focussing too much on how to sanction the bad?

  • MyStudioOne
    MyStudioOne Member Posts: 283 Pro

    Thanks for the feedback, anyone else feels this way about a vote down?

    It might be useful for self-moderation. With the right threshold, the comment would be buried after getting a specific amount of users clicking vote down. With that said, it might indeed increase negative emotions.

    Up Vote has many uses, especially when you can use it as tool for canvassing users about any number of things.

    If down vote is a tool for users to self moderate offensive posts, I think the benefits outweigh the down side.

  • Matt_NI
    Matt_NI Administrator Posts: 1,130 admin
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/118693#Comment_118693

    100% and we will do more. That's the reason why we're looking into helping setting up these spaces better. We're checking constantly to see if users would be interested in doing such activities. Our approach so far (after a few failed attempts here and in the old community) is to look for some level of organic activity before stepping in. A good example I think are also the idea sections where discussions are very constructive for the most part. We have some ideas though and we will try new things in the new year.

  • Matt_NI
    Matt_NI Administrator Posts: 1,130 admin
    https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/118697#Comment_118697

    Yes, it is linked to the "bury" function I mentioned before. It was never used here but it can be a great tool if we want to encourage self-moderation. It also helps mods to see which users are getting comments buried and why (maybe easier to see than reactions)

  • Maciej Repetowski
    Maciej Repetowski Member Posts: 674 Guru
    edited December 2023

    Partially out of my experience, threads are either not moderated at all, allowing things to escalate or they are too heavily moderated, when the damage is done already.

    i think mods should proactively react to rudeness, ad hominem attacks and other forms of abusive behaviour, before it spirals out of control and the thread is closed then.

    also, we need to be able to report posts to mods, doesn’t need to be a flag system, but some mechanisms needs to be in place for that.

    I don’t like point system, it promotes over posting, IMHO. I’d prefer OPs marking posts by members as an “Answer” - and those members who would provide most of those answers (per month or per year) should be rewarded.

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