S88 MK3 Freezing all the time

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  • BMan
    BMan Member Posts: 18 Member
    edited November 2023
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    My inclination is to agree with you here on the "brown out" thing. I purchased a USB tester/monitor yesterday and plan to hook it up and monitor the power across the connection.

    Interesting thought about the cable. I'll also add that to the mix of testing! Thus far, I've only used the included USB-C cable.

  • BMan
    BMan Member Posts: 18 Member
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    @Tim_NI I'm having a somewhat frustrating experience with NI official support on this issue as well. The latest response I got back was to:

    • Make sure that the USB-C hub supports power delivery and data transfer functionality.
    • Similar to hubs, make sure that the USB-C cable supports power delivery and data transfer functionality.

    That isn't helpful because it's not the hub that's causing the issue. It's the direct connection to the computer. The powered hub solves the issue (at least for now). I've made this point multiple times in support, but I don't seem to be getting through. I also have tried to make the point that I've only used the supplied USB-C cable. I suppose there could be an issue with this cable, which I still need to test.

    In the interim, I have also ran some more tests. I was able to recreate this issue on all of the USB-C ports on my Mac Studio and also on the USB-C ports on my 2022 MacBook Pro. In every instance, the direct connection failed while the USB-C hub connection succeeded.

    I still have yet to test with the other cable as well as hook the ports up to my USB tester.

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 933 mod
    edited November 2023
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    It sounds like the issue is a known issue with USB-C on certain computers.

    The workaround for all peripherals, ours included, is to use a hub.

    It sounds like that workaround is working for you.

  • BMan
    BMan Member Posts: 18 Member
    edited November 2023
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    That's good to know, thanks @Matthew_NI. I haven't seen that known issue documented. Would you happen to have a link you could share? I did some Googling but didn't find something to speak to this. I've seen some articles that allude to this for the M1 chip (primarily for connected displays), but I've come up empty with reports for M2 based products. (I'm running Mac Studio with the M2 Max config)

  • Tim_NI
    Tim_NI Product Team Posts: 42 mod
    edited November 2023
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    The influencers received the very same units. It is unfortunately rather that this doesn't happen consistently, even with the same model of computer.

    As per @Matt_NI's post, it sounds like the issue is a known issue with USB-C on certain computers. The workaround for all peripherals, ours included, is to use a hub. 

  • avdrav
    avdrav Member Posts: 2 Member
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    can somebody recommend a usb-c hub that will definitely work?

  • reffahcs
    reffahcs Member Posts: 848 Guru
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    I have lots of issues with the NI factory cable, but the S61 MK3 has been fine for me using the USB-C cable that came with the Ableton Push 3, connected directly to the front panel. I'm not using a hub or additional power. It's only 1 meter long though, so that might not work for some people. You can buy it off Ableton's website. I've tried a few other cables without much luck, even when using an additional cable plugged into the power-only port of the keyboard.

  • BMan
    BMan Member Posts: 18 Member
    edited November 2023
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    I'm using the CalDigit Element Hub (Thunderbolt 4 / USB 4) in my current setup, and it works flawlessly. It has 8x ports (4x USB-A and 4x USB-C). Currently I have connected to it: NI Komplete Kontrol S49 MK3, Ableton Push 2, Monogram Creative Console, NI Maschine MK3, Samsung T7 Shield (4TB) SSD (Time Machine backup). I highly recommend it (I'm not affiliated with CalDigit at all).

    For the S49 MK3, I'm using the NI provided USB-C cable. For the other connections, I am using Anker USB cables (USB-C and USB-A).

  • BMan
    BMan Member Posts: 18 Member
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    Regarding the statement: "...it sounds like the issue is a known issue with USB-C on Apple Silicon...", I can only find documentation for this for the M1 Apple Silicon machines. I can't find anything about M2 (or M3, albeit it's early for that), including M2 Pro/Max/Ultra configs. @Matt_NI / @Tim_NI - it would be great if you could link us to documentation on this known issue you're talking about. It doesn't seem like this documentation exists.

    I've run a series of experiments with other attached devices to my M2 Max Studio, including devices with significant load (e.g., Ableton Push without the DC power connected) and multiple SSDs/HDDs. The only device that has issues operating is the S49 MK3. I don't have definitive proof, but it's enough for me to question if it's an Apple issue or a NI issue with this particular keyboard. (Of course the issue doesn't happen, at all, with my older S49 MK2.)

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 933 mod
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    The only one of your devices, perhaps. But I have other generic devices also affected. It's widespread and unfortunate. The impact of the issue may be more readily apparent with our keyboard than, say, a USB-C monitor. A momentary visual glitch is less interruptive than a loss of connection to your audio.

  • daveiam
    daveiam Member Posts: 7 Newcomer
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    I have the same problem with the keyboard freezing--right in the middle of switching between patches. The last patch selected before it freezes, continues to play from the keyboard.

    I am running a dedicated Mac Studio with the following: M2 Max, 32GB memory, 2TB HD. Sweetwater wants me to try a factory reset, but that would require NI to intervene in resetting the serial number of the S88. Once registered, the keyboard cannot re-registered without NI's help.

    I have tried using a powered Hub, but that did not work. I connected the Hub at the keyboard, and I am now wondering if it should be connected at the Mac Studio. Any thoughts?

  • Ziyan
    Ziyan Member Posts: 1 Newcomer
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    I bought S88 mkIII a few days ago and use it with M1 Ultra Studio. I can confirm that the same issues arised but it is SOLVED with a USB C power hub connected to the keyboard. I just randomly picked a powerful enough fast charge hub (65 W maximum supply, much higher than the recommended 7.5w) and used a normal usb -c cable from Anker. Voila! Things go perfect now. Seems like it IS a power issue.

  • MorrisEd
    MorrisEd Member Posts: 87 Helper
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    Imo…no matter what NI says to the contrary…it is an NI issue. NI keyboards are notorious for not working consistently with all usb cables (almost as much as NI is for blaming Apple for their device issues). It’s not specific to USB C as I had this issue with my KK MK2 and USB A…and again with my M32 and USB A. NI used to have a post up about the right cables to buy, which was incredibly annoying because the specs were not always listed on Amazon.

  • Matthew_NI
    Matthew_NI Product Team Posts: 933 mod
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    @Morris B.

    It is not an NI issue. There is an industry-wide issue affecting USB-C peripherals. I have seen it affect hard drives, external displays, audio interfaces, and so on.

    I am also not blaming any one specific computer manufacturer, as I am not at liberty to disclose which models are affected. But I can tell you the problem is acknowledged by the companies, and has been fixed in more recent models, but will live forever in models produced in the last several years, as the fix would be a large scale hardware recall that they're unwilling to countenance.

    I can only continue to advise what many companies are advising when contacted: using a USB-C hub typically solves this.

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