Is KK3 Prime Time Ready yet?

FilmCompos3r · 2024-09-14T14:44:13+00:00

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I dipped my toes into the new MK3 and KK3 ecosystem back and January on Cubase and was treated with heaps of corrupted projects, horrible system instability, and the need to rebuild my system drive to get back to a clean installation of KK2.

I’m, perhaps stupidly, thinking of trying again now that the software is more mature. What are peoples experiences? Is KK3 stable? Is it loading your old projects? Are the majority of S61 units shipping with even velocity responses now?

Also, general question - in my own tests I’m finding that loading KK2 projects in KK3 generally leads to success now, but that if I save that project and try to open it on a KK2 machine all plugins will not load. Is that just the way of things or is there a way to load KK3 sessions in KK2 machines?

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Beatsandmore

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178088#Comment_178088

I been almost a year and play assist is in beta. I think we have a right to be upset. I put my mk3 61 back in the box already.

Beatsandmore

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178320#Comment_178320

My speculation is on the 23rd they will announce kontakt 8 and then imnkomplete kontrol update to address 12 months of waiting.

BIF

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178323#Comment_178323

"I been almost a year and play assist is in beta."

Yes, because they had to move people to the MIDI Templates project.

So it's been a year and Play Assist is in beta. That's what IS, and we ain't going to change that now.

R_E_D

That's what IS, and we ain't going to change that now™

That's the spirit!

BIF

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178313#Comment_178313

In all fairness, shipping MIDI Templates should have been done on day 1 since let's be honest, it is a basic and core feature that was always included in KK since the day of launch. It's like releasing a new model car only to release the ability to unlock the trunk after a year+

We get all that and you're not wrong. But nobody can go back to 2023 and make this all perfect. So now we have to work our way FORWARD through the issue. Or stay on 2.9.6, which is what you're already doing. There is no wrong choice.

While Play Assist (whatever it is) may be a fun/interesting tool/gimmick, it's seemingly at the cost of addressing actual bugs/limitations and the point I was making above is the sheer obvious lack of resources NI appear to have with little to show for a full 12 months of work now compared to most other companies I see with new releases of products and active beta programs.

Yes, this is exactly what happens when somebody screws up and forgets something important. You have to spend TIME going back to redo that thing. That is reality, and that is what we are dealing with.

This has been a constant for years and is what is so frustrating not knowing if anything we say is even taken seriously.

Maybe @Matthew_NI can address this precise concern of yours. Matthew, Jester makes a good point. And we have heard many people saying that the data collection methodology is completely inadequate by itself of helping NI leadership to decide what to add or remove from future releases. Has NI given consideration to the possibility that data collection all by itself can leave some pretty big blind spots?

Sub Banks for instance, that was an issue raised in Beta (by multiple people) before KK was even released and seems like it would be literally a 5 minute fix but still has yet to even be acknowledged.

I'm not on the beta team. @Matthew_NI, I've been on beta teams before (for other companies). I remember that a lot of us lost enthusiasm for one particular beta program when it became apparent that we were being ignored by that company's software designers. Well, we THOUGHT we were being ignored. Maybe we were, or maybe the devs just couldn't do what we wanted for some reason or other. In another instance, the main UI dev just lost patience with us because we were asking for way more than what the UI team could provide. Then we stopped seeing that dev in Jira and in our forum. Everybody lost because of that.

Frustration certainly can be a 2-way street.

I don't know the dynamics of the current beta program for NI, but is there a way to take input from the beta testers, and to make sure that they are being listened to…and that they are being given SOME reasoning when NI has to tell them that something is out of scope or not possible to do with current resources?

=======================

I don't want to see our valued power users leave us. But I don't want to see NI suffer any employee attrition, either, which is what happens when people feel that they're not being treated respectfully. We need to find a way forward, especially if NI has plans for a new Maschine device and/or software to fit into the new paradigm of KK MK3 (which is my guess of where we're all headed here).

JesterMgee

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178337#Comment_178337

a lot of the counter arguments are valid for a cheap product with a small dev team and an outlay that they have limited resources. This is not that, this is a top line product with a dedicated user base that has been waiting for improvements for a decade, not to have the whole playfield upturned and started over with “look what we did, we just put a front door on this new house”… some may suggest the door should have been a default feature.

Matt knows my frustration, we discussed it but it has not yielded much calm on my end. Most people just give up and move on if unhappy and from my spins around the sun that is exactly what companies hope for, old users who have been bled dry to move out and new impressionable users keen to spend money to come I that have no pre conceptions.

The issue is tho, if one voices their concerns regularly it’s simply taken as “personal issues with the product” as so many responses have indicated, my personal frustrations are not what the majority of users feel… basically, we hear ya, but honestly you don’t matter.

No issue in hoping for the best and being positive but at some point we all lose hope.

LostInFoundation

Honestly, I start to think we are nailing the real issue here, talking about lack of developers and necessity to move them here and there.

WE THE USERS still THINK NI is a big company. What reality shows is that 90% of what they release is developed by third parties in their name and that the few things they do by themselves often have problems, because of rushed development, lack of serious testing and also a little arrogance in data analysis (or let’s call it interest only in the big numbers that will lead to sales and disinterest in the things that make a product really great).

That’s why I say that users underlining these things are useful to other users. NI is, in many’s minds, still the big cat in the business…and still lives on its past fame…still selling products at high prices although they are not so premium/innovative as they were in the past (related to what they offer and the support/development they receive). But maybe (probably?) this is not true anymore.

And that’s why new Maschine following the path of Komplete MK3 is not only a guess for me, but also a BIG fear.

Unfortunately I’m not the type of guy who says “this is how it is now, so let’s accept it. Useless to fight for it”. I’m more convinced that showing them what users think could help them (for example in changing their mindset. One example? If they are not anymore the big company able to work on different fronts, they could stop releasing many mediocre products and focus their limited resources in building a single, well thought, well realized, well tested, innovative product that will make people talk about it. And I mean talk in a POSITIVE way.

But it seems they go in the opposite direction, investing in fusions with other companies (once again the idea of “more products to sell equals more money”) instead of investing in making NI own products’ name big and respected again

DunedinDragon

All I have to add to this discussions having come from 30 years in commercial software development is the best thing Native Instruments could do for itself to improve it's development cycle is to not open up Beta testing to its user base. It's clear from my reading of some of the comments here that they clearly don't understand what Beta is if they're confusing adding an unplanned feature because they see it as a bug in a Beta. Public Betas come well after the "functionality complete" milestone and NOTHING takes 5 minutes to fix in a commercial release product. Betas, by definition, are about stabilizing "planned" functionality. Anyone that doesn't understand that simple concept has no business participating in a Beta.

Skijumptoes

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178372#Comment_178372

Disagree completely, the MIDI Templates was an excellent release, and clearly benefitted from beta testing.

I'd rather companies took their time and included end users input while they're developing, then releasing half ass releases that never get polished off or completed.

I'd say that the 'new' NI seem better than many other companies in this regard, and long may it continue.

Beatsandmore

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178372#Comment_178372

You don't know what we are thinking. If you sell me a car and say it comes with power windows and I buy it only to leave the dealership and there a note say Q4 the power window feature will be available.. I'm sure you will be pretty pissed..

DunedinDragon

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178435#Comment_178435

Well I can't say NI has ever promised a feature that wasn't delivered as far as I can tell. They may have not delivered features you were expecting it to have, but not anything in their marketing material that was specifically promised. But that's not THEIR error if you don't read the marketing material or perform your due diligence before buying it.

Beatsandmore

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178472#Comment_178472

I'm not going to look but I do remember they said play Assist will be released soon.. thats a year ago.. so again come down and let me sell you a new car loaded and the power windows will come soon 🥺

Update: I did look and the official tutorial around 41:31 he talks and demonstrates play assist.. now a year later we wait.

https://youtu.be/TDm624ynDuk?si=braNST6bzm7k2nWD

GAHTTZ

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178476#Comment_178476

to be fair play assist has been available since day 1, what they are developing is on device play assist with no software required

Beatsandmore

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178486#Comment_178486

Yes I agree now that I know.. at the time I thought play Assist was in standalone and sub banks was available. There wasn't much out at the time.. next time I will wait ..

JesterMgee

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178372#Comment_178372

No one is asking for the Beta to be opened up so seems your eyes are not as clear as you claim, however there are numerous cases where companies have both a closed and open Beta program to first focus on problems and have educated and capable users test specific issues, then public Betas where everyone can download the latest updated (but possibly unstable) version and do a wide range of tests with simple forum feedback and a responsive and active development cycle planned to address the issues they expect (hence my example of how Ableton deliver on their releases with targeted follow-ups to address the issues we know will be there in a new release). TBH, having an open beta (in addition to the current closed Beta) for KK would probably be beneficial since many issues I have seen would likely be caught and easily fixed.

The ISSUE we are talking about here is how slow the updates cycles are and how there seems to not be a plan in place to address bugs in a timely manner or even macOS updates which it has been said in the past "unexpected issues in a macOS update have delayed some updates…." (not directly quoted but certainly a claim that has been made in the past as if macOS updates have come out of left field and not on a regular 6 month basis).

Some issues take months to be addressed (major issues affecting usability in DAWs currently for example), some issues take YEARS (like Sub Banks and prior to that, VST3 GUIs not showing in some DAWs which was confirmed close to 3 years ago now and never fixed in KK V2, or even just VST3 compatibility period!).

If you haven't been on the track for a while then you are one of the new users I eluded to who will of course be happy as the MK3 is a great product and of good quality, but there are valid reasons many existing users and some new users are not happy.

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/178472#Comment_178472

But again, you have not been around here long enough or in the eco system to even know so it is great you have no real negative experiences to draw from, however what you should take note of is there are several in this thread alone that DO have a lot of experience and time here seemingly all on the same track.

A major example of a promise that was back pedaled years ago was a new version of Maschine software with a full arranger (more like a DAW). Loads of discussion and excitement around that…. Then suddenly "uh, yeah we won't be doing that anymore…" That was a painful moment in NI history. There are other examples such as Kore etc and let's also not forget that a company cannot break a promise if they never actually tell their customers anything, a problem that existed up until a few years ago when they actually decided to engage with users on the forums so that is at least something that has changed on the surface and to be fair, that side has greatly improved.

Suggesting that the issue is users not doing their homework is completely shallow and exactly highlights your lack of understanding on any of the issues we have (collectively, not as individuals). Let me educate you from the standpoint of a user who, due to my position with handling NKS and speaking with thousands of educated users around the world directly….

A father is excited to find that Komplete Kontrol offers full accessibility features as his Son, being completely blind, is very interested in music. He has done his research over the year and even dropped into a music store and tested the keyboard and features to be sure it is what he hopes it will be. As Christmas approaches NI announce a brand new model, perfect timing just before Xmas so the father buys this and as you can imagine he is thrilled to have found the perfect gift for his son. Now, Accessibility has been a feature in KK for close to 10 years so one would not even consider a new updated and seemingly improved version would also have this feature out the box…

Now, come Xmas day and the following week of dissapointment they cannot use the keyboard because this feature is missing. When inquiring about this, they are told that yes this was missing from the initial launch but we hope to have it available again soon…. Then over the course of a full year NI release instead, the missing MIDI functionality and as just mentioned, advertise the work going into the Play Assist feature, while this poor blind kid is STILL waiting to use his keyboard. Just one of many examples I have heard that continues to add dissapointment into how things are handled…

So while I am happy to hear that your experience personally has been trouble free, I can fully sympathise with others out there that have genuine stories of dissapointment, unrelated to "doing one's homework"!

To get back to the topic at hand, is KKV3 ready for Prime Time? Depends on what is important to the individual and how much they are willing to accept in change/limitation/lost functionality at the moment and if (given history) they are prepared for the inevitable wait ahead for improvements (if any).

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