Shady business practices

Fragletrollet

So I bought Komplete way back in version 5. Think I paid close to a 1000€ for it back then, a substantial amount for a teenager.

I've since bought several DJ hardware products, Maschine, and regularly upgraded my Komplete.

Then suddenly Komplete isn't complete anymore, and my once top-tier collection is now the most basic, thinned out version of "Komplete".

Oh well.

Upgrade to the Ultimate version, surely now I have the total package.

But no. Every year, I need to upgrade my status to the Ultimate to keep that tier, or I'm just privy to the most basic new stuff included in the upgrade.

I recently upgraded to the newest version, but just the "standard" version as whatever added in the ultimate package is just tons of filler sample libraries etc. They haven't updated Battery, Absynth and a host of other main attractions in many years. Most of the new synths are Reaktor offspring.

Oh, so you just upgraded to the newest Komplete? Sorry Guitar Rig 7 Pro was released just after the update was available, so not included. Very nice.

So with the announcement of Traktor Pro 4, I was ready to purchase, albeit it wasn't long ago I updated to no.3 .

Prime occasion to use the voucher I got when I updated my Komplete.

But no, vouchers cant be used on already discounted products, even though they upped the upgrade price between T2 and T3 (49€) and T3 and T4 (75€) and my lousy 25$ voucher would just offset that price hike.

But hey, the new DJ hardware includes T4! Lets get a X1mk3 to replace my trusty S2.

BUT THE VOUCHER CANT BE USED ON THAT EITHER

Honestly Native Instruments, I know you're not reading this and don't care, but you've gone from a respectable pioneer in the industry to rock bottom evil corp.

Meanwhile, I hope I won't be suckered into buying any of your products ever again

(or at the most, only in the form of a used second hand product, as Traktor is a main part of my live setup.)

Go about your business, Coca Cola wannabe. F the loyal customer right, it's not like he has the option of alternatives as we soon OWN EVERYTHING

Regards and good bye from a customer who's been loyal for the good part of 20 years.

Fragletrollet

Meanwhile, Image Line still sticks to their old policy of lifetime free updates, after 20 years and actually listens, and cares, to their customer base.

Vocalpoint

@Fragletrollet

"Regards and good bye from a customer who's been loyal for the good part of 20 years"

Sounds good to me. Have fun with FruityLoops.

Goodbye.

VP

Fragletrollet

While I appreciate that I come off as a bitter, your comment adds no insight or furthers the discussion in any way. I'd rather read valid points for the change in NI's business model, or thoughts on why it has to be this way. I am making an observation, and while one could argue I should restrain from so strongly projecting negativity, it is from the perspective of someone who has used NI software for many years, and am seeing a turn for the worse.

Bashing FL studio users is nothing new, we've grown quite thick skin while the competitors add features that have been implemented in FL for years.

I also am proficient in various other DAW's, have a large analog studio and am both designing and building pro audio gear, so unless I am misreading your comment, I would consider myself a power user who has invested considerable amount of money and time into music production and technology.

How about properly defending these practices you seem so fond of? Is adding dumbed down pre-produced sample libraries, not updating flagship products for years and many update generations, acquiring other plugin companies and adding their plugins to your next edition as an addition to the content (that many have allready purchased from the original vendor. Nice! now I have two of the same plugin with no resale value. Should have thought of that years back when I purchased the original, right?) something you consider innovative? How about not properly supporting editor scaling (which was the only reason I updated in the first place) for modern resolutions in 2024?

Explain me what makes me ignorant, cause I feel I'm making some (although bitter) valid points.

Vocalpoint

@Fragletrollet

"While I appreciate that I come off as a bitter, your comment adds no insight or furthers the discussion in any way"

This entire thread adds no insight or furthers any discussion whatsoever. And yes - you have the bitter part correct.

Unfortunately - you seem to think the world owes you something or NI needs to explain their business model to you.

FWIW - I too am a 20+ year NI client and if I do not like something they offer - I don't buy it. If I do not like the way a vendor conducts business - I move on.

What I don't do is swing into their forums and with my very first post ever - "strongly project negativity". What exactly has changed that has you so tweaked anyway?

Komplete has NEVER included the entire NI lineup - except maybe v1 when they had 8 products.

Also - The NI you and I remember from way back when - is not the NI of 2024. Today's NI is owned by a venture capitol firm and while many of us do not agree with a lot of what goes on with NI these days - there is nothing we can do to change this. They have a different focus on a different kind of user now.

I am always down for a good debate about any topic - but you have an angularity here that tells me it would not be a healthy one. These forums are usually reserved for helping folks solve issues and get creative with their NI stuff.

Me - I try to focus on the good stuff NI is doing and keep on truckin.

VP

Fragletrollet

Finally - the NI you and I remember from way back when - is not the NI of 2024. Today's NI is owned by a venture capitol firm and while many of us do not agree with a lot of what goes on with NI these days - there is nothing we can do to change this. They have a different focus on a different kind of user now.

Me - I just focus on the good stuff they are doing and keep on truckin.

You are very right.

I appreciate it's a waste of hot air; but I also consider my post as honest feedback, that any company that isn't totally disconnected from it's user should value. I guess at some point you're so big that personal opinions are of little concern, while investor revenue is all that matters.

You say I contribute nothing. I ask you this: I sell you a product which by its very nature needs to be updated at some point in order to continue working. That is how software products work. Then I gradually change the product, from what it was advertised and sold as when initially purchased, into something quite different. Yes, one is free to not further update, with the consequence of having a product that at some point is no longer functional in present systems. All the while I devalue your product by gradually introducing products that claim the same as the one I first sold you, to be the complete collection in this case.

Oh, let's give it a chance, so I entice you to upgrade to the truly ultimate package. But I fail to mention clearly that if this is the tier you'd like to stay on, your new upgrade prices are significantly increased. So if thats not to taste, we'll just bump you down to the lowly standard user again. Cause it's not like you bought what was advertized as the complete package to start with, right?

Do you find this a practice we should encourage? Would you think of me as an honest salesman?

It appears that you seem to think the world owes you something or NI needs to explain their business model to you.

No, NI owes me something: an upgrade path that sticks to the original premise of the original product. That promise was the basis of the whole idea of the bundle to start with!

My original Komplete 5 purchase was delivered in a sturdy box, with hardcover manuals for every included software. I think FM8 replaced FM7 an edition or so later, Massive and Absynth were all there, in pretty much the exact same form they are today. How long since Battery got any work done to it? They have been standing still for well over a decade, while we have E-Jay type kontakt libraries with dumbed down interfaces so your mum can make something that sounds professional.

Truly, I am mostly just sad to see a company that in many ways was a forerunner in the industry, a beacon for other software companies to guide for, in a time when software instruments were in their infancy, turn into Coca Cola or whatever. If that's the world youre fine with, sure, I will leave. But my criticism is not invalid because you suck it up.

That said, there sure is quality in the package (hard not to, with so many titles)… but the innovation is replaced with… quantity.

Vocalpoint

@Fragletrollet

All valid points. But the key point here is what I already stated.

NI 2024 has a different business plan. They do not particularly care whether you like the current offerings, how the old stuff has been put on ice and everything else that you mention.

When you own the company - you can do whatever you want. We can either join the party or stand aside. No amount of harping about “customer loyalty” matters here. This is about moving product. Plain and simple.

NI still offers killer Komplete Upgrade deals and in my opinion has value today that is so far beyond what we got back in Komplete 5 it is not even a discussion.

While you are certainly not the first to poke these guys in the chest looking for answers - be prepared to be very disappointed.

I am a Komplete 14 Ultimate licensee and really it could take me years to explore all the sounds and stuff I have.

I buy my upgrades when it make sense and really do not care about the old timers like Battery etc. Those apps were done long ago and there are much better options for all of them now (and not necessarily from NI either)

Life is too short and creative time too rare to complain about all this stuff day in and day out.

Let’s rock ( instead)

VP

chk071

Back in the days, we just stopped buying when we weren't satisfied with something. Nowadays, we create threads on internet forums, accuse companies of "shady business practices", when we don't like their products, and try to drag others into our self-made spiral of negativity.

Can't say that I like how times changed.

Fragletrollet

Written communication has a tendency to polarize (is that the right word?) the statements made; things are of course not as black and white as my original, pessimistic post suggested, and believe it or not, I am not angry at the world.

Voting with our wallets actually works; hence it keeps companies valuing their customers opinions, hence no need for futile forum rants. Don't sugarcoat the past just because opinions weren't shared. I know plenty who werent particularly happy about Logic's 5000$ licensing fees back then neither, we just didn't have anyone to share our thoughts with, now we do, and those opinions are very public.

Negativity, if not obsessed about, is a function to initiate change of the current situation. Hardly something to trivialize or downplay as useless (unless it's all one does, ofcourse… hehe), but rather an effective evolutionary function.

But yeah whatever, I'm not here to ruin anyone's day. Enjoy the (NI) ride further down the road of preset swapping in search of perfection, as opposed to really mastering something so well that it's worth paying attention to. The democratization of artistry is the downfall of quality. Hence why it's more lucrative to make sample banks than music these days.

I'll show myself out

(and fire up some awesome Kontakt library and play something beautiful)

Vocalpoint

@Fragletrollet

Then vote with your wallet and declare a personal victory.

There is no need to fire up a rant thread every time someone feels like they have been taken advantage of.

VP

JesterMgee

Not sure I understand the argument.

Maybe I am wrong as much of it is TLDR so I skimmed for the key points you are trying to make and from what I read, you purchased Komplete many years ago but seem to believe that it is now obsolete because there is now new content available in the latest Komplete bundles making your content seem less usable?

I mean of course there will be new content made later that you don't just get for free. You use the image line argument of lifetime free updates but they also have expansion synths that you can purchase which don't get included in any updates so it's the same thing.

I am one of the first round here to point out the obvious failings of NI, their very slow development cycle, their complete lack of seeming to care about bugs and issues in their software to fix them with any importance, the fact their model with instruments has gone from a company who innovates to the much more subdued producers of endless expansion content but the argument I see isn't something I can align with.

There is likely another point you have which is the Kontakt 5 being EOL and now to use K6 you have to pay to update, tho I assume you use a mac? The practices they use for forced obsolescence is far greater but people will still happily shell out for a new machine every 4-8 years usually.

As you mention, best way people can get the point across is to just speak with their wallets. Personally I have been so overly disappointed with the whole lack of progression of Komplete Kontrol for the last 3 years and now the latest KK being as far removed from what I had been hoping for that I have not spent a dime on anything in that time, choosing to instead invest in other instruments, investing in Serato instead of Traktor and pulling back my once very active engagement of helping others on the forums here. While I have constantly popped in here to add a voice to the failure of listening to users over the years and addressing issues, I have not bothered to announce that I have left for other greener pastures, TBH no one else cares. Also has far less impact as a user who invested some cash 10 years ago, spent nothing more, never contributed to the community to just popup out of the blue and say "yeah, i'm out". Kind of fails to make any real impact that we haven't heard before for a brief sneeze of a moment.

Good luck on your endeavours, WOuld say it's sad to see you go but TBH, never even knew you were alive to begin with…

Fragletrollet

First off, it seems I have provoked some of you personally based on my post. That was not my intention. We can all be friends, and still have strong, differing opinions. In my perception this makes for interesting discussions.

Secondly, it's not like I bought K5 and now just upgraded. I've poured in well over 3-4 grand in software from NI, and probably about half that in their hardware over the years, willingly. And made lots of great, and not so great, music with it while having tons of fun. It's truly amazing how cheap it is to be able to make music that sounds truly professional these days, and the ease of use and wide choice we have is staggering.

I am in no way arguing that I should get additional content for free, and the fact that Image Line has managed to grow and expand while being true to their motto, is a rare occurrence that I in no way expect from big applications that have ambitions to grow and expand feature wise. But it was a promise they made, and although NI's choice of wording their product "Komplete" might not be as literal of a promise, it sure hints that there is meaning behind the title chosen.

My initial reaction was fueled by partly owning ALL of the Plugin Alliance plugs that came bundled with the K14 update I just got, that I have previously paid for. Oh and that the newest Guitar Rig was released just in time to not be included in the LATEST update to this (in)Komplete upgrade.

Then I guess it got focused on a trend I see in several of the bigger audio engineering corporations, which is consumerism promoting quantity over quality, while growing to a point where listening to users matters little, and voting with your wallet just doesn't work anymore. You gonna make Coca Cola stop polluting the world by not buying their drink? Be ready to basically never have a soft drink again, as they own most of the market.

Then It's stuff like the voucher "gift" I got with the K update is unusable on anything without actually spending even more money on something I don't want nor need; it's simply a trick to make you spend more money on prefab kontakt libraries. And then there's the subscription trend for stuff that should just be included from the start.

I guess I'm disappointed in watching all these trends unfold, a company that valued the knowledge needed to operate their software so much that they printed hardware manuals in order for you to really master the intricacies of their machines, now promote an approach to music production that is based on premade material, instant gratification and a never ending search for an elusive answer to one's own lack of satisfying results; namely promoting a view that by just swapping out the preset, the softsynth, the daw or what have you… then you'll find it. It's a use and toss mentality that I believe to be fostering generic art, inducing writers block, promoting branding as opposed to knowledge and practice. No, let's hire ghost producers, while we all strive to sound exactly the same. Let's make music making so simple that any fool can have a voice.

Just like internet gave me a voice. In a bar you'd just disregard me, while now I have the power to provoke.

;=)

Vocalpoint

Well the choice is simple. Stay with NI or don’t.

This thread is really going nowhere.

Continued success.

VP

Fragletrollet

So I realize my wording combined with the timely post count is harsh, and I guess I underestimated the politeness and helpfulness of the forum. I've popped in and out briefly in the past, when the forums looked very different, and the general feeling was of a very public yet desolate place.

Which it apparently isn't, as the well explained responses are. So for that I am sorry.

DunedinDragon

I can't even begin to imagine the amount of money I've invested in music gear and software since getting involved in the music business in the very early 70's. And I still invest in new things today. I purchased what I purchased for the value it brought then without any thought to what value it might have for me 50 years later. That's because I expect there to be technical progress and will gladly pay for it if it brings new capabilities or greater efficiencies. Just because I bought something great last year from Company A doesn't mean I'll invest in the next innovation of that same product from Company A unless it brings additional value. And if that's the case they've earned the money I'll pay for it.

In that same light Windows for Workgroups was a wonderful, innovative operating system when it was introduced. But that didn't stop me from buying newer innovations of that operating system as they emerged..IF..they offered significant value add for my uses. That's why I'm still on Windows 10. And until I see the specific value add to ME, I won't be moving forward to the next version.

That's how business works and why this sense of "entitlement" because you're a customer is so foreign to me. Once I buy a car and I recieve it that transaction is complete. I don't expect anything from them past their warranty on that car. If I want the newest car years later I duplicate that transaction and get a new car. I'm not entitled to anything more or less.

Why would anyone assume differently just because it's a music creation piece of software? To me that just seems childish or naive.

Fragletrollet

Well the choice is simple. Stay with NI or don’t.

So on your system you instantly abandon any product you like from a firm you don't, based on a strict conviction that you're voting with your wallet? I doubt that, or if true, hats off. I whish we all could, because then voting with our wallets would actually work. Even so, it is a last ditch attempt in terms of communication, at least as opposed to the interactive flow of idea's between software devs and users that many companies have in their early days. But we all want to be millionaires, so when they grow big it's too hard to relate to the user anymore (so many of them), plus like you say, share holders promote a business model that is known to continue to create revenue as their only priority.

But we're making ART here, aren't we?!

Ofcourse as artists it's our birthright to be angry at something (inspiration, right), and maybe a revolt among yeysayers would ease the pain of hating the world for a… I mean…. ehh…

Maybe I just needed a "I think NI's business model sucks too", and a hug.

No but for real I think having discussions around business practice is important. And about as effective as voting with our wallets.

you will own nothing and be happy