Kontrol S88 MK3 - MAC OS Sierra - First impressions.

Phil Norris · 2024-04-25T20:24:31+00:00

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After spending 500DKK on a USB-C power supply I'm not impressed with this company yet - let's see if this yields any result.

On Mac Sierra 12.10 the S88 MK3 doesn't work.

If I download and install the legacy Native Access for Sierra - it won't install the Hardware Connection Service, and many of the modules fail. Do you guys just assume that the latest software works on all legacy systems? Sounds like you need to do some RD on compatibility.

So how do I get past Welcome! Add your serial in Native Access?

If the answer is buy a new Mac - then don't bother answering.

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Simchris

System requirements

MIDI 2.0 (requires MacOS 13.5 or higher)
MIDI 1.0 (with MacOS 12 or higher)
Intel Core i5, Apple M1 (and equivalent or higher)
macOS 13 (Ventura) or higher (Sonoma compatibility coming soon)
Windows 10 or 11 (latest service pack) or higher
8 GB RAM

Not sure it will even work on SIERRA, unless you mis-spoke.

PoorFellow

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/151274#Comment_151274

What confuses me most is forums. There are so many posts on here with confused people, blaming connection problems on USB-C, when there are clearly also driver related issues on Windows, the Hardware Connection service and the way that the driver is bundled, and not available for download from the webiste.

Actually the 'USB-C' and the 'Driver' issue are very connected. Problem is USB-C 'communication issues' beyond the control of N.I. which has required Microsoft to update the USB-C chips set drivers. And the communication issues probably is what is getting the keyboard to not register correctly. All this is rather old by now and Matthew_NI have made a number of statements on the issue(s) including referring to a 'brute force' workaround (referring to the use of e.g. USB-C hub) (same for the use of another port or cable like USB-C to A)

In case you need a statement regarding the 'communication breakdown' :

Matthew_NI , November 2023 :

"USB-C can be fickle, on certain machines. This can affect all peripherals, but particularly ones sending lots of data back and forth, such as a display or our keyboard(s). I've seen this affect about 100 USB-C monitors across an entire business, and am bound by NDA but it appears specific to certain models of computer.

A high majority of the support issues we've responded to (including things like failure to update, connections to software not occurring, inconsistent performance) have been solved with brute force workarounds of the in-built USB-C connection. Meaning: the use of a USB-C hub to bypass the problematic connection on the direct-in ports, and or other method that are effectively the same (adapter)."

Matthew_NI , December 2023 :

The hardware does work. For many thousands of users. In some cases, things can go wrong (for example, the USB-C issue mentioned above is beyond our control, and all we can do is advise workarounds).

To resolve your issue - I would first ask that you start a dedicated thread so that we can ask more specific questions, and avoid polluting this one. Tag me in once you have, if that's ok. Please note too that threats of social media are unhelpful, and not a faster path to resolution. We are very literally here to help.

Additionally, before even doing the above, could you ensure that you've:

Registered the serial number in Native Access 2
Installed the NI Hardware Connection Service from NA2
Installed Komplete Kontrol 3.1 from NA2
Installed the latest version of Kontakt 7 (if you have it) from NA2
Downloaded and installed the latest version of the keyboard firmware when prompted to do so

Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:05 PM , 2024-02-19 ,

To be very clear, and to avoid any one opinion becoming misinformation, I'll re-state what has been said in various places:

As frustrating as this is to you, it is also to us.

This issue is specific to the USB-C implementation on certain computer models.

This issue is not specific to the peripherals themselves.

This issue causes the communication in the protocol to essentially break, thus data is dropped.

This manifests as various symptoms, depending on the peripheral. For Kontrol S MK3, the dropped data can interrupt a firmware update, or controller -> DAW and/or controller -> Plug-in sync.

The issue can appear at random, frequently or infrequently.

Using a USB-C hub interrupts and bypasses the problematic communication specific to the chips used in the USB-C implementation of affected machines.

We can highlight and advise on workarounds, should a customer be affected.

We can, and have, reported this directly to the manufacturers of affected models. So have many other manufacturers of peripherals.

They can, and have, fixed it in newer models, but of course there exist affected models in the market that will forever be subject to the workaround.

We cannot do any more than this. I'm sorry that some of you choose to blame us. I recognize that it's deeply frustrating, but I cannot change the facts of the matter that I've outlined above. ,

MK3 has two ports:

1) For simultaneously data and power

2) For auxiliary power if the first port is not able to provide adequate power (e.g. a USB-A port)

These are not two separate issues.

Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:11PM , 2024-02-19 ,

This narrative simply isn't factual. I know how frustrating this is - but please recognize that the shortcoming here is specific to the USB-C implementation in certain hardware, and not the peripherals that are affected by the shortcoming.

As I've stated - it is to do with communication protocols in the chip breaking down, which can affect the transfer of whatever's coming down the pipe (USB-C cable).

Also, we are not talking about a lot of cases. We are talking about a small number of cases handled either here in the forum, or via our customer support channels, or both. The number of unaffected customers is exponentially larger.

All comments

Simchris

System requirements

MIDI 2.0 (requires MacOS 13.5 or higher)
MIDI 1.0 (with MacOS 12 or higher)
Intel Core i5, Apple M1 (and equivalent or higher)
macOS 13 (Ventura) or higher (Sonoma compatibility coming soon)
Windows 10 or 11 (latest service pack) or higher
8 GB RAM

Not sure it will even work on SIERRA, unless you mis-spoke.

Phil Norris

Yeah - missed that. Thanx.

Guess I'd better buy a new Mac :D

PoorFellow

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/29295/kontrol-s88-mk3-mac-os-sierra-first-impressions

After spending 500DKK on a USB-C power supply

How did you manage that ? You can get an original 20 W Mac PSU for half that price or even have Thomann send you one of their cheapest (Thomann USB C+A Power Supply) from Germany for less than €20 or you could get the Ansmann Home Charger 247PD for less than €40 (both including shipping)

Phil Norris

It's a jungle of specs, where you can easily make a mistake.

Thomann says - 'Power supply via USB-C'. OK I understand this as it gets power from a USB-C supply. They don't say if it's included. They also say that 'Can only be used via USB-A with optional cable and USB power supply - OK. So I'm not using USB-A because I have USB-C ports on my computer, so I don't need the optional cable and power supply.

Before I order, a search for 'does the S88 come with a power supply' sent me to a post on here that says a power supply is included with the S88, only the S49 and S62 get power thru USB-C' - but I did not see that this was for the MK2 - so I order the keyboard - and it has no power on arrival.

I go to this forum, where many here have the same problems with not enough power, these are discussions about what works and what doesn't. After reading I conclude that a powerful, good quality USB-C supply is needed, so I go out and buy one - and that cost 499,- from Elgiganten. There were 3 available, one cost 599, the other 399 - so I went middle ground.

So now you know how I managed that.

PoorFellow

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/151254#Comment_151254

It's a jungle of specs, where you can easily make a mistake.

Yeah , that is certainly right , it is a jungle and one so easily gets confused. Also it is very difficult to get a good grip on the differences between all the USB version specifications and what they actually means and incur.

P.S. Most likely the 'Lenovo ThinkPad 65W AC-adapter (USB-C)' from Elgiganten would have been a candidate also (you would have to ask Elgiganten). Strike against that though is the only one and only fixed cable. But it is hard to get a good overview because of the way the site lists. They e.g. also have the 'Apple 30W USB-C Power Adapter' .

Phil Norris

What confuses me most is forums. There are so many posts on here with confused people, blaming connection problems on USB-C, when there are clearly also driver related issues on Windows, the Hardware Connection service and the way that the driver is bundled, and not available for download from the webiste.

I'm waiting for a driver, as I believe you can get a link to a download location if you put in a support ticket.

I hope so - as I just want to use the keyboard. It's been sitting there for a week, and my time is running out if I want to send it back.

PoorFellow

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/151274#Comment_151274

What confuses me most is forums. There are so many posts on here with confused people, blaming connection problems on USB-C, when there are clearly also driver related issues on Windows, the Hardware Connection service and the way that the driver is bundled, and not available for download from the webiste.

In case you need a statement regarding the 'communication breakdown' :

Matthew_NI , November 2023 :

Matthew_NI , December 2023 :

The hardware does work. For many thousands of users. In some cases, things can go wrong (for example, the USB-C issue mentioned above is beyond our control, and all we can do is advise workarounds).

Additionally, before even doing the above, could you ensure that you've:

Registered the serial number in Native Access 2
Installed the NI Hardware Connection Service from NA2
Installed Komplete Kontrol 3.1 from NA2
Installed the latest version of Kontakt 7 (if you have it) from NA2
Downloaded and installed the latest version of the keyboard firmware when prompted to do so

Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:05 PM , 2024-02-19 ,

To be very clear, and to avoid any one opinion becoming misinformation, I'll re-state what has been said in various places:

As frustrating as this is to you, it is also to us.

This issue is specific to the USB-C implementation on certain computer models.

This issue is not specific to the peripherals themselves.

This issue causes the communication in the protocol to essentially break, thus data is dropped.

This manifests as various symptoms, depending on the peripheral. For Kontrol S MK3, the dropped data can interrupt a firmware update, or controller -> DAW and/or controller -> Plug-in sync.

The issue can appear at random, frequently or infrequently.

Using a USB-C hub interrupts and bypasses the problematic communication specific to the chips used in the USB-C implementation of affected machines.

We can highlight and advise on workarounds, should a customer be affected.

We can, and have, reported this directly to the manufacturers of affected models. So have many other manufacturers of peripherals.

They can, and have, fixed it in newer models, but of course there exist affected models in the market that will forever be subject to the workaround.

We cannot do any more than this. I'm sorry that some of you choose to blame us. I recognize that it's deeply frustrating, but I cannot change the facts of the matter that I've outlined above. ,

MK3 has two ports:

1) For simultaneously data and power

2) For auxiliary power if the first port is not able to provide adequate power (e.g. a USB-A port)

These are not two separate issues.

Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:11PM , 2024-02-19 ,

As I've stated - it is to do with communication protocols in the chip breaking down, which can affect the transfer of whatever's coming down the pipe (USB-C cable).

Phil Norris

I'm guessing HP or Lenovo.

To avoid just throwing more money at USB hubs, is there a specific model or a list of hardware that circumvents this problem?

It would be nice to resolve it in the cheapest way possible, as I've already blundered the USB-C power issue by throwing money away on a power supply that is way beyond the specs for what was needed.

PoorFellow

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/151414#Comment_151414

Cheapest attempt to fix the problem is to use the already bought USB-C PSU to power the keyboard and then get an USB-C to A port cable/adapter and try connecting the keyboard to the computer using that to see if that fix the problem. Windows can be a bit stupid sometimes with respect to drivers and similar if one have already had a peripheral attached previously , and especially can Windows be stupid when it comes to USB units so I have no idea how smooth or not it might be.

As for hubs then the recommended hub type I think is a self-powered hub that offers USB-C PD

P.S. I were going to try to refer to hubs recommended by others, but on inspection of buyer feedback on the internet then it appears as if a percentage of users also have connection/disconnection problems and more with hubs depending on the specific type and generation of computer port that they connect the hub to !

Phil Norris

As in the posts above, many people here including the NI support folks are suggesting that the problem on Windows machines can be solved with a hub.

Even though this sounded fishy to me, and I guessed that I would just be extending the problem to a peripheral, and since I have not really heard anything yet from support, I bit the bullet and threw money at a USB-C hub that supports power, and also USB-A - this will be useful anyway when I get my new Mac next week because that machine has no USB-A ports at all.

I tried a USB-C to USB-A cable thru the hub, I tried USB-C directly on the hub - none of it works. Still the KSMK3 Updater software cannot see the firmware on the S88 device, or the S88 device in general, even though Windows is clearly showing the S88 present in the device manager.

I get a brand new Mac next week, and I hope to get none of these problems installing the S88 - otherwise it will be going back pronto before my 30 day return runs out.

PoorFellow

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/151456#Comment_151456

I tried a USB-C to USB-A cable thru the hub, I tried USB-C directly on the hub - none of it works.

This 'fix' attempt are supposed to be tested directly to a USB A port on the computer while also using the USB-C PSU. If that doesn't work then try another A port (are you using a cable or an USB-C to A adapter? , my first adapter for my phone didn't work and I had to buy and adapter of same brand as the phone)

Also, as I reported earlier, then apparently USB-C hubs can also have problems depending on own tech supported versus the port you attach them to. So you could also try another port for that and while using the hub you can also still power the keyboard through your PSU.

Still the KSMK3 Updater software cannot see the firmware on the S88 device, or the S88 device in general, even though Windows is clearly showing the S88 present in the device manager.

If it is present in the device manager and it still doesn't work with either of the above then to me it suggests that you need to remove or alter the original keyboard registration in Windows (I agree this is a terrible ordeal for some of those struck with these problems) . Alas then I think that N.I. has removed some of the recipe discussions on the forum for doing that and also I as a Moderator does not receive any insider technical information to assist.

So only thing to suggest is checking the driver as shown in the How Can I Update the Driver and Firmware of My Kontrol S88 MK3 on Windows? ( from the Kontrol S-Series MK3: Troubleshooting Firmware Update Issues )

Else , I understand that this is not how it should be and I wish that I could be of more and better assistance but the only thing to suggest in the end when all else fails is to let N.I. Hardware Support handle it.

Phil Norris

There is an edited driver, that is not signed, so if like me, you cant run non signed drivers on your OS because of IT department policy - then the only thing to do is wait until a signed driver becomes available for machines experiencing these problems.

I know that on for eg. HP machines like mine (a Zbook G6) some USB-C / Thunderbolt 3 ports need extra updates to the bios before they will work with certain devices. I had an external Asus Zen monitor that connected, got power, but could not function as an extention screen until I installed the update, everything else (hard disks and such) worked fine over the bus. I seem to remember that it was a 'Thunderbolt universal update' or something along those lines from the HP drivers site. Basically the screen on the S88 is much the same as an external monitor. I searched in vain to find it, but something like that might fix it.

Phil Norris

I finally got my new Mac and everything went like clockwork over USB-C, updated the firmware no problems and installed all the modules. So now I can use it on the Mac with some minor problems - like crashing Logic, which might be because of the number of cores set in Kontakt, I'm not sure yet. Loading is slow, not like on the demo videos on YouTube where the presets load almost instantly. I also have problems with the sustain pedal, I'm using a Roland DP-10 - and using it with the S88 cuts some notes off even though I am holding them down in chords. Not sure what's going on there.

Meanwhile I'm trying to find a fix on PC also still - there are driver issues.

Quick yes or no question: Is it possible to run the data port from USB-C to USB-A such as is suggested in the threads above? I have lots of power from an external USB-C supply, but limited USB-C ports on the Mac to connect the data port, and need one USB-C port for my old Lacie thunderbolt (2.0) storage via a 2-3 adapter cable. If I try and connect the data port on the S88 via a USB-C to USB-A adapter cable, I can't see it - shouldn't this be possible?

PoorFellow

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/152023#Comment_152023

So now I can use it on the Mac with some minor problems - like crashing Logic

You do not state OS but I'd wager Sonoma : komplete kontrol mk3 crashing logic with Kontakt 7 (KT-8692)

P.S./Edit : Quote Jeremy_NI : Kontakt 7.10.2 is live.

If I try and connect the data port on the S88 via a USB-C to USB-A adapter cable, I can't see it - shouldn't this be possible?

USB A ports are supplying less power than USB-C ports , but provided that the keyboard is powered using an USB-C PSU with PD then it ought to be able work. However due to manufacturers sometimes failing to keep to specs in all links of the connection chain (physical chips set , drivers , cable , ?) then all in all sometimes it's difficult for some users to get it to work though it should be simple. As I wrote above then even e.g. the hubs are giving some people problems and same goes for adapters. Best shot is to buy e.g. quality brand cables. But actually then using an USB-C to A port cable has been a fix for more people, but it might depend on either A port (tech) used or cable ? I couldn't say.

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