LC6000 Backspin Problem

Arne Zanter

Hi, I treated myself Denon LC6000s and created a corresponding mapping.

This has worked well so far and I can now control two decks per device with the vinyl button as a deck switch - very cool.

However, I have one problem: backspins are impossible because the "Jog Touch On" with "Hold" interaction mode feels too short.

So I have to keep my hand on the jog wheel all the time when backspinning, which just feels really weird.

I didn't have this problem with my old devices (Denon SC2900).

Is there perhaps a solution for this?

Greetings from Germany

Uwe303

Hello,

I'm not on my computer right now, but if you spin, the play button normally goes off, can't you use it as a condition for scratching, it scratches as long as play is off maybe. But I can later have a look in also can mark @Stevan he knows for sure how you can do that.

Stevan

It sounds like your jog wheel transmits two different CC messages when turned or you have a modifier assigned to the "Jog Touch" control on the hardware. If there are two CC messages (tura and touch+turn) then both needs to be assigned to your Jog Turn message that you use to scratch.

Note that scratching with MIDI is not perfect like scratching with native HID mode. So don't expect great resolution there.

Arne Zanter

Thanks for the quick answers, I'll tinker a bit more today.

I have tapped the midi signal, the Jog Touch On is behaving normally. Exactly the same as with the old devices.

The problem therefore seems to be related to the rotation speed. If the platter is too fast or too slow for Traktor, the problem seems to occur. If I set the jog adjust to the centre, the behaviour also improves but is still not perfect. I'll download other midi mappings and see which values were used there, so far a relative jog turn value between 13 and 17 seems to work best.

Btw. the new Denon jog wheels have double precision via midi and Traktor 3 receives midi signals twice as fast as Traktor 2, so the precision is actually better than with the SC2900 but of course not as good as in hybrid midi-DVS mode. However, I hardly ever used this mode anyway, as the slip function can't be used, so I'm already used to it. I'm aware of the problem, but there doesn't seem to be an alternative. I'm not going to put two CDJs here for €5,000 just to have better jogs. As I occasionally want to place my turntables right next to the DJM, an all in one controller is not an option.

Stevan

I have zero experience with that device. Are you saying that the jog wheel doesn't spin freely by it's design?

Arne Zanter

I can't explain it exactly, so I made a video.

I adjusted the Rotary Sensitivity from 13 to 17.

If I set the jog wheel to "Light", the problem can be seen very clearly,

the track now moves in the wrong direction before the backspin happens.

With the Rotary Sensitivity set to 13, the problem looked slightly different (as described above).

And what I forgot to show in the video, the problem still doesn't occur if I keep my hand on the jog wheel during backspin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpmr0Nf-mb4

Stevan

Thanks for making a vid of the issue. You may need to try a differend Encoder Mode as well but yeah I'm not of much help here. Sorry.

Maybe someone who actually tested the unit can give some better directions. Good luck!

6xes

im guessing here... but what im seeing in the video, regarding the LC6000 and the backspin

is the "touch on" assignment is controlled via note velocity??... which is possibly the reason why the the playhead moves forward and then begins to go backward on release???

just a guess of course... is it possible to change from note to a CC?? alternatively you could try inverting the note... or re-registering the note to move it in the opposite direction on touch...

the CC is the better option

as i believe what might be occurring when you are holding the platter down... and then begin to move the platter is the note-velocity value is increasing in the reverse direction?????

Arne Zanter

Unfortunately, the jog wheel is still not working perfectly, so I'll probably have to try again at the weekend.

Today I tried to analyse the midi signals with Wireshark and came across some strange pitch commands.

I then simply sent them to the device via Midi OX and the jog position LEDs came on.

Letters and numbers are a bit more complicated and require sysex streams, luckily someone posted the translation to hex for the Denon Prime 4 in the Mixxx forum and no wonder - it's exactly the same on LC6000 Prime.

So I quickly grabbed the signals from Traktor and sent them out via LoopMidi and captured them again with Bome to send the corresponding streams to the Denon and voila:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2M2j9rE6Yw

If I should be able to fix the jog problem, these things are really powerful.

By the way: It is not yet possible to send a Cover Art/600x600.png Logo File because I am not smart enough to understand the qt png to hex function.

nachopenades

It works reasonably well for me with this configuration:

https://youtube.com/shorts/vukykS-5qlY?feature=share

nachopenades

By mistake I had put the video in hidden mode, now you should be able to see it.

Arne Zanter

Thanks for the video, do backspins work properly for you even at high speed?

"reasonably well" means to me that you also seem to have slight problems?

As announced, I analysed the midi story in more detail at the weekend.

It seems that the devices are buggy, as they are outputting data that does not correspond to their own midi specification.

As you can see in the Screenshot, the device outputs decimal values of 63 and lower if the backspin is too fast, which is not allowed according to the Denon data sheet.

The problem is not with Traktor.

Virtual DJ seems to have fixed the problem by blocking the inputs from this "too fast" range and redirecting them to the value 64, so only forward spins are affected by the problem in VDJ.

(You can easily test this in the demo.)

I will contact Denon tomorrow and think about a solution that can be used for Traktor.

Edit: The Jog-Wheel has 4 different Modes, if you work with 2 of them together i think its possible to fix.

The Mode chosen by Traktor via "Learn" seems to be the wrong one.

Still -> the Midi Spec is wrong.

Arne Zanter

And here is the Fix guys:

You need two Assignments to use another mode of the Jog-Wheel.

Works perfekt.

Its even better than the official VDJ Mapping.

Denon LC6000 + Traktor is viable.

nachopenades

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/comment/135846#Comment_135846

Great job, I just tried it, and with the double assignment it behaves better when turning quickly.

Thanks!

nachopenades

I have eliminated the "cc054" line, and only with "cc017" and the "Rotary Sensitivity" value at 150, the experience is very good. I think the "cc054" is not necessary.

Arne Zanter

I thought so too, but then you get audio glitches if the turning speed is too slow, because the other control is a pitch value and not a jog value.