Does the NI Forum Community Culture need a change?
Comments
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I have the opposite opinion, cause lately lots of users have been assuming their Flags came from people they argue with, when in fact it comes from people who aren't as confrontational and prefer to Flag rather than publicly have an argument / debate. So they go Flag who they think did it, flag the wrong person, and that person can go ahead and do the same... snowballs fast.
But, I do understand public vote up/down can lead to issues, it's dangerous but IMO it worked very well on the previous forum, I only remember a couple of instances where people abused it, and if people do abuse it then you know exactly who is doing it and can contact us. With anonymity, there's none of that.
I had some people who voted me down a bit and my reaction was to simply avoid quoting and talking to them, sometimes that's for the best. Sometimes it's just better to click an "I don't agree" button than to quote and start an argument.
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Agree and the issue is that users seems to not be fully aware of the report button / the flag system seems to be confusing (our fault). Reporting is pretty straight forward and takes 2 clicks. We'll tweak and communicate about it so everyone knows how to make use of it properly.
IMHO. I’d prefer OPs marking posts by members as an “Answer” - and those members who would provide most of those answers (per month or per year) should be rewarded.
That's pretty much what's happening now, points are rewarded mostly because of accepted answers. That's like 90% of it at least. It could be simplified and only rely on # of accepted answers though.
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Yeah I know, that's the problem with keeping an eye on particular people or groups. Too many people and groups! There's probably not an easy solution apart from adding a "This thread is getting out of control" button!
-- Mike
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We can add that to the report reason actually so anyone could click exactly what you just wrote 🤓
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The real problem is that everywhere you go then often it's a kindergarten. That is nothing specific to this forum. Say ONE wrong (wrong as in people do not like) thing ONE time at the 'wrong' place , and you will have haters at your back forever. That is how the internet has become and to some extend how a lot of people have become even off-line. And here in this forum then some people will be negative towards you (even in the extreme for some) if they do not like what you write, and that even with respect to the type of answers that you tend to give , tied in with the type of discussions and problems that one tends to participate in. So some people here would rather that other people are silenced all together if they don't like the solutions given , even if the solutions suggested are actually working. And apparently it doesn't matter either if they are not able to produce better working advice themselves ! It has become that ridiculous, and those exercising that type of behavior are even taking it so far as to believe that it is the other person that is the problem and not themselves. The obviously abuse of spam flag for 'down rating' post is merely the tip of the iceberg.
But there is no way that any of that is ever going away and it is not something unique to this forum because it all ties into how most people have become these days. Most of you will not agree even if it all is staring you in the face.
As for the discussion about 'Ranks and Rewards' then my suggestion, last time that there were a discussion about that that I participated in, was that I think that the 'Rewards' ought to be selected by a 'Draw' which would give people with many answers and those with few same chance of getting anything. For those very productive it might seem very wrong but it would take away at least some of the petty 'bickering' (though maybe only some). However , since there are reasons that things are the way they are then I expect them to remain the same !
With respect to the 'Spam' vs 'Report' , then the 'Spam' down-rate function ought to be removed and then be replaced by a 'report spam' option that would notify the Mods , but that in turn would also require a penalty towards those reporting if reporting something not spam as spam , as well as a penalty for actually spamming, else the Mods couldn't do anything but deal with the petty abuse ! But on the other hand then I have never seen any forum working and be healthy for a long time and that includes the MODs also abusing their powers also ! In fora it often is the 'fan boys' and the Moderators that are the greatest problems that will not stand any opinion other than their own. But here in this forum then the N.I. bashers crowd really thrive and can become extremely unpleasant towards anybody trying to discuss anything or not being interested in joining their N.I. bashing !
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Anything related to up-voting or down-voting is ALWAYS abused in fora ! What you are in fact proposing with a voting system is to extend the already ongoing philosophy that 'popular' is right and the already on-going abuse of the down-voting everywhere.
I have already seen more times how some people here annoyingly constantly commenting (I would in fact say spamming) discussions over and over again receives very many up-votes. And most all people not only thinks it OK but actually upvotes the posts because they like the opinions and it simply doesn't matter that the person is simply spamming the thread with the same type of comments over and over again ! (Express almost hate against N.I. at the right time in this forum and people will love you !)
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Yeah, the internet gonna internet. If one gets triggered easily by disagreements then best to go live offline in the country.
But here in this forum then the N.I. bashers crowd really thrive and can become extremely unpleasant towards anybody trying to discuss anything or not being interested in joining their N.I. bashing !
I understand this perspective but this goes both ways.
Some dude has issues or is unhappy with something, that's the topic and someone quotes him to say 'Shut up everything is great, I have no issues, stop complaining'.... that person just proceeded to complain that another is complaining... Not only is that hypocritical but also doesn't help anything, it just antagonizes the unhappy person and starts an argument.
Imagine this thread having a bunch of people saying "the forum is great as is, no problems, don't change anything, you're a crybaby..." It would def trigger someone to quote and argue, thumb down, or whatever else... 🤷♂️
Both happy and unhappy users have the right to express themselves especially if they are paying customers, as long as it's done respectfully, we don't need to be separated into "NI Bashers" and "Fanboys", that kind of word is exactly what separates us.
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Respect towards others and self constrain when irritated is something which is sorely missing on this forum and IMHO should be enforced by mods.
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@PoorFellow With all due respect, we have have a choice to be part of the problem or part of the solution. I choose the latter. What do you choose?
No one is pretending there is a magic solution to fix what is wrong with people who cause the most problems again and again. But if we can fine tune a system already in place to make things even a little better than you described, then I am willing to do my part by getting involved in a discourse aimed at making that happen.
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Its certainly good to plan out ways to hide disagreeable comments on brand forums, yes, or to classify users in a way that makes them more or less credible. Things have changed quite a bit since the forum was rebooted and private equity came for NI, and the frustration of average users is something we have to figure out how to re-engineer, similar to a reddit up/down vote system. It will make the environment feel nicer, to not see comments like that.
And lets not forget KVR! Anyone have an admin connection there, so we can clean up those wild-west brand opinions, as well? Its like a kiddie daycare, where paying customers(children) get to share their candid views about brands they patronize. We have to protect brands from all those angry opinions!
Take notes from LinkedIn, as their brand transitioned over the years. Today, the social space is ONLY for brand promotion, and if you criticize brands you can be banned from the network. This is how you manage social spaces!
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I'm definitely in favour of downvotes.
I'd also recommend having a separate forum category just for purchase & install issues, to prevent them from cluttering up the the others. You just get so many individual threads for those that it gets hard to find any actual discussions.
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But what if paying customers get too unruly over there? We should find a way to also suppress those comments, or downvote them to where nobody can see them. Controlling brand space and ensuring only calm, respectful customers are allowed to post will make a brave new future for all of us. If spending $1000s on music products leaves you angry, the last thing we want is for that negative energy to influence others.
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What I choose is to not necessarily let the labels or comprehensions of others determine my actions.
Besides that then , I dunno . I don't have any power here and in the end then nobody in charge are going to do what anybody but themselves want. Also , to me then maybe the real job could be another than what you ask/think. Perhaps the real job is to create a superior piece of semi-AI forum software that would make most all of what is discussed obsolete , but there are so far much more important things that I will probably never pull myself together to do either ! (I have far more important things to not get done !)
Also , some of the remarks about the software that this forum runs on makes me think that it's kind of a waste of my time to try to figure out what to do with software that I do not know neither the abilities nor the limitations of !
So back to your question : "With all due respect, we have have a choice to be part of the problem or part of the solution. I choose the latter. What do you choose?" , then my answer is : Neither ! , I don't have to be. I do however understand that that response could earn me a 'you are part of the problem' label , to which I , with all due respect, would have to say that you label has no real meaning to me !
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some random thoughts on these issues:
- anonymity is much less of a chaos agent than people think. it used to be unexamined common wisdom that people would behave more respectfully if their real identities were tied to their posts, but looking at actual posts from actual people, that does not appear to be the case after all
- any rewards system is gameable at some level, and some people will always try to game it; if you want to have rewards, that's a fact you have to live with. it also means that ANY performance indicator you come up with will over time become less reliable as people optimize for the number instead of the underlying quality it is abstracting
- that said, and i realize that this might come across as self-serving, perhaps the number of points divided by the number of posts from a user is a more useful measure than points alone?
- people here have invested money and countless hours in NI products, some depend on them for their livelihood and their happiness. emotions can run high very quickly, and we're talking to people who we can realistically assume are, if not always responsible themselves, at least in league with those who are. i've seen so, so many posts born out of genuine, desperate frustration that things people know could be better aren't, and they are hoping to impress that on the actual person, otherwise inaccessible, who could do something about it. some people are hurt by decisions the company makes, and they post in anger. it's easy to dismiss these posts because of the way they're worded, but it's also short-sighted
- this is a very diverse forum, but only english is supported. it's a hidden barrier of entry that only people with at least workable english can participate. i have no ready solution for this, but i hope you're aware of it
- moderation is one of the most difficult jobs i know - i'm not a huge fan of assuming that someone who shows up a lot and has many posts, even helpful ones, will be a good moderator. the skills do not overlap. my own experience as admin/mod of a mid-size music software forum (about 1k active users) was that other than spam, the most annoying part of moderation was to keep myself from escalating instead of moderating
- rules should be clear, rules should make sense, rules should be enforced consistently. if there's a rule that people shouldn't sign their posts (for example ;)), either talk to the people who do and get them to stop, or remove the rule if you're actually okay with it
feedback on the things you said you'd discuss:
Remove the Abuse flag
one report/flag button with a custom reason field should be enough.
Remove the ability to see who reacts to your comment
not sure what this would accomplish - i've seen the reasoning that it would protect against chains of punitive reporting, but that will not be a thing anymore, hopefully
Add a vote down, vote up, off topic reaction
don't overthink it, imo. why "off topic" out of all the possible reactions? is it really that much of a problem?
Add a threshold for vote down to collapse a comment (meaning if you get # amount of vote down, your comment will be either greyed out or collapsed)
that sounds like a good idea to me!
Review the impact of the rewards / point system on the quality of contribution
see above for more detailed comments... the cash/gear prizes for top contributors may well have incentivized people to powerpost (and I've been on the receiving end of that kind of "bulk advice", and it was not good). in general, while it's nice for the top contributors to get something back, i think it's to everyone's detriment overall, sadly
Add more information about the report flag system and add pre-defined reasons a user must select from to report content.
as mentioned above, i think a free text field is the most useful option
Create an individual knowledge thread about reporting and reactions
good as a resource to point to after the fact, practically useless if you want to prevent things :)
Allowing specific keywords to be posted but censored (as opposed to triggering a moderation approval)
save moderators some work, always good.
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i hear you, but i would encourage you to post sincerely instead of sarcastically!
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