Fix for Kontrol Mk3 firmware update on Windows
Comments
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I had the S88 Mk2 and just tried installing the Mk3. What a complete coprolith the installation process is to get a midi keyboard going. NA2, hardware service, KK, firmware updater and then the real fun begins, or not.
Look at the community since Oct 2023. Many unhappy folks on the Windows platform with alleged work arounds that don't. Why has NI made this so difficult a process? I now have a white screen bricked unit, acquired through Thoman, and now I have to return it for service? And no, the 5 power cycle did not recover it.
This is the worst implementation I have ever seen of a new product by ANY company.
Yes I already have a ticket in with tech support. Only 1 picture can be sent? Another limitation. Yes, I tried the 2024-FEB-05 work around, no joy. In fact, that is what caused the white screen of death.
I would love to hear how NI is going to RELIABLY fix this problem!
Thank you,
Michael Peters0 -
@mwpeters75 That sounds like an awful experience - hopefully support can help you resolve. I do want to be clear though -> two recent issues have been resolved:
- The issues with Windows have been resolved, and if we've seen continued reports of that not being so, thus far it has transpired that a user was not on the most recent versions despite thinking they were, and that getting their system up to date resolved this. Windows doesn't make it super clear, and may even tell you you're up to date despite missing important minor updates.
- There was an issue with the firmware that could, rarely, brick (white screen of death) a unit during firmware update. That has since been resolved and going forward units should not do this when updating.
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Thank you Matthew for your gracious reply given my intemperance.
Fortunately, the unit was not bricked but in some kind of twilight state. After numerous alternative attempts to update (different PCs, USB 3 hub et al) I was oddly enough able to complete the firmware upgrade using a Raspberry Pi solution and an onboard USB to Ethernet software solution. Let's hope that there is not a firmware update for a while and please be sure to do regression testing across numerous S88 MK3s and Windows PCs.
Please consider having a graphic upload function and an edit function to this community board!
Thank you,
Michael Peters0 -
Re: the @Vas P post with the impressive procedure: I am not getting the 'unknown device' problem noted in step 5.
It appears that the newest KK/MK3 drivers are being labeled in the NI directory as "Komplete Kontrol Driver". Prior versions identify "MK2", which is clearly not the right driver at this time. Drilling down further, the INF directory shows contains 2 files:
nikkbdmidi.inf
nikkdbusb.inf
There's nothing in these file names making it obvious whether we are getting the DFU or the ODR version from either one, though I'm still not getting past the updater error ("Your KONTROL S MK3 failed to boot into firmware update mode and could not properly be updated...").
Meanwhile, the keyboard itself is happily flashing its light and SAYS that it is updating. I'm gonna wait for 20 minutes this time before power cycling it again... but I'm not holding my breath: it only took 20 seconds for the updater to give up, and I gotta believe that's not nearly long enough to download the firmware.
My best guess right now? When the keyboard went into 'firmware update mode', the device connection was lost and that's why the Updater app gave up. That communication handshake may be the problem.
Edit/Update: 20 minutes has passed. Did not complete update (as I say, I really doubt it got started). Single power cycle was sufficient to get back to the point where the board wants to try again. I have a connection: KONTROL S88 MK3 DFU and ODR devices both appear as Universal Serial Bus devices on the computer.
The updater -- once again -- reports a 0.2.9 FW version and wants to get me to 1.5.7. That part is good, I guess.
I hit update and the device disconnects, reconnects as a Komplete Kontrol MIDI device, and then after about 20 seconds, I get the updater error. Rinse and repeat.
For variety, I just now tried the "Retry" button after a power cycle. The updater never changed its message, but something was attempted... I know this because I got the device disconnect signal from the computer as before and it reconnected under 'other devices' as 'KONTROL S88 MK3 DFU'. The board itself believes it's updating the firmware, but the updater isn't saying so. I'll give this 20 minutes more. Yeah... did nothing.
Curiosity: the MK3 Updater is showing a serial number (8 characters of a serial number), but it isn't correct for my board. Is that relevant?
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In case you need a statement regarding the 'communication breakdown' (an quality USB-C to USB 3 A port adapter has been seen as helping some , otherwise what is recommended is the use of a self powered USB-C hub capable of USB-C PD and power supply capable of USB-C PD , especially the S88 has been known to require an USB-C PSU with PD) :
Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:05 PM , 2024-02-19 ,
To be very clear, and to avoid any one opinion becoming misinformation, I'll re-state what has been said in various places:
As frustrating as this is to you, it is also to us.
This issue is specific to the USB-C implementation on certain computer models.
This issue is not specific to the peripherals themselves.
This issue causes the communication in the protocol to essentially break, thus data is dropped.
This manifests as various symptoms, depending on the peripheral. For Kontrol S MK3, the dropped data can interrupt a firmware update, or controller -> DAW and/or controller -> Plug-in sync.
The issue can appear at random, frequently or infrequently.
Using a USB-C hub interrupts and bypasses the problematic communication specific to the chips used in the USB-C implementation of affected machines.
We can highlight and advise on workarounds, should a customer be affected.
We can, and have, reported this directly to the manufacturers of affected models. So have many other manufacturers of peripherals.
They can, and have, fixed it in newer models, but of course there exist affected models in the market that will forever be subject to the workaround.
We cannot do any more than this. I'm sorry that some of you choose to blame us. I recognize that it's deeply frustrating, but I cannot change the facts of the matter that I've outlined above.
Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:06 PM , 2024-02-19 ,
MK3 has two ports:
1) For simultaneously data and power
2) For auxiliary power if the first port is not able to provide adequate power (e.g. a USB-A port)
These are not two separate issues.
Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:11PM , 2024-02-19 ,
This narrative simply isn't factual. I know how frustrating this is - but please recognize that the shortcoming here is specific to the USB-C implementation in certain hardware, and not the peripherals that are affected by the shortcoming.
As I've stated - it is to do with communication protocols in the chip breaking down, which can affect the transfer of whatever's coming down the pipe (USB-C cable).
Also, we are not talking about a lot of cases. We are talking about a small number of cases handled either here in the forum, or via our customer support channels, or both. The number of unaffected customers is exponentially larger.
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Just a heads up, some people have reported it taking over 12 hours for the initial firmware update. If the firmware update tool says it's updating the firmware, then best let it be. If it still hasn't updated after 24 hrs, then I'd contact NI support. Also as Poorfellow mentioned, I wouldn't bother trying again until I had a USB hub in between my PC and the keyboard.
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@reffahcs @PoorFellow Thanks to both of you. With me, this saga started on a different thread involving 'Low Power'. I solved that with a USB power delivery device (20W). I have purchased a USB-C card that will directly deliver a USB-C to USB-C interface, though that hasn't been installed yet (awaiting a sound card before opening the computer).
I will work the workarounds and report back... it may be a few days. This is my 3rd mk3 board. I'm going to give it my best before giving up. The info from Matthew is interesting... I'll exercise some discretion and stop commenting there.
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Yes I recall that thread. Sorry for my poor memory, but you don't currently have any USB-C ports on your PC and that is why you're installing the card I take it? Or is the card because your current USB-C ports didn't work, so your hopes is that this one will work better?
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All of this sounds like a lot of fun. Magic usb cables and hubs; alternative computers…all because a brand new product needs to be updated immediately. Why does the firmware even need to be updated? I got this thing months ago and the firmware hasn’t changed. This whole rollout is a disaster.
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I don't think you'll find many people who would disagree that the rollout could have been better. But the forum and the people that participate in the forum can only do so much. That includes the NI folks that you see in this forum too. I'm sure if it were solely up to them they may have done things differently.
Alas the NI folks in this forum are left dealing with the situation as it is. So by all means vent frustration, but the NI folks here are just trying to make the best of the situation and help those they can.
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...you don't currently have any USB-C ports on your PC and that is why you're installing the card I take it?
Wait...what?
@reffahcs My computer currently only has a mixture of 2.0 and 3.0 USB-A ports. Will have 4 USB-C's once I get this card installed.
Must be an oldie-but-goodie machine. Even my 2012 computer still had USB-C ports (2 I think) on the motherboard, as has every laptop I've had since then. What CPU you got in there, @Carpengui? And you're only now getting a sound card? What did you get?
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It's a home-grown/home-built machine that's about 2 years old, now. And I really didn't need a dedicated sound card before getting a midi controller board. The chip is a Ryzen 7 5800X.
In any case, I promised an update: here's the tl;dr version... it is working.
I have continued to receive terrible support from NI. I tried to run the driver update procedure (https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/16567321051805-How-Can-I-Update-the-Driver-and-Firmware-of-My-Kontrol-S88-MK3-on-Windows) a couple more times tonight (failures again) and then installed that USB-C ports card (along with the Soundblaster SE X, which wasn't really relevant to the process, of course).
Run through the procedure twice more. First time... nothing. Second time... suddenly it "took" with no actual further changes on my part. So now I suddenly have real firmware. I have a usable keyboard. I have real sounds coming out of it and it's working with Kontakt 7 like it's supposed to.
All that said, I also told support that I was researching Arturia boards today... because if tonight failed, I was going to quit trying. I'm not at all happy with their support team... and this has been going on for a lot longer than this saga: they assume you're an idiot and the answers are almost always 2 sentences and less -- with a reference to a website procedure or document that usually gives away the fact that they really didn't read what you told them.
So my S88 mk3 works now... but it should never have been this painful. A terrible experience that I will not recommend.
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Quote : "but it should never have been this painful. A terrible experience that I will not recommend."
I don't think that anyone will disagree with that , not even N.I:
Quote : "they assume you're an idiot and the answers are almost always 2 sentences and less -- with a reference to a website procedure or document that usually gives away the fact that they really didn't read what you told them."
The basic problem with support through companies is that it as good as always works procedural so you have to jump through all the hoops to get to the end point (everything has to be checked). Also , with the 'consumer rage' behavior that some people feels 'entitled' to act out then one hardly can blame a support crew if it all becomes just job. And of course attention and perception can vary depending on time of day or from person to person. On top of that then our own perception of what we write ourselves are not always as good as it should be (being a Moderator here then I am still just another forum user!). Meaning that sometimes where we think that we express ourselves really clear then we are in fact not or are to long time to get to the point so that the interest of the reader is lost (I tend to do that) (like here ? 🤣) Therefore it is always a very good idea to be as summarized and concise as possible when writing to support (while of course not missing/ leaving out anything).
If you haven't read it yet then for what it's worth I will paste some official statements about the S-Series MK3 problems below here :
Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:05 PM , 2024-02-19 ,
To be very clear, and to avoid any one opinion becoming misinformation, I'll re-state what has been said in various places:
As frustrating as this is to you, it is also to us.
This issue is specific to the USB-C implementation on certain computer models.
This issue is not specific to the peripherals themselves.
This issue causes the communication in the protocol to essentially break, thus data is dropped.
This manifests as various symptoms, depending on the peripheral. For Kontrol S MK3, the dropped data can interrupt a firmware update, or controller -> DAW and/or controller -> Plug-in sync.
The issue can appear at random, frequently or infrequently.
Using a USB-C hub interrupts and bypasses the problematic communication specific to the chips used in the USB-C implementation of affected machines.
We can highlight and advise on workarounds, should a customer be affected.
We can, and have, reported this directly to the manufacturers of affected models. So have many other manufacturers of peripherals.
They can, and have, fixed it in newer models, but of course there exist affected models in the market that will forever be subject to the workaround.
We cannot do any more than this. I'm sorry that some of you choose to blame us. I recognize that it's deeply frustrating, but I cannot change the facts of the matter that I've outlined above.
Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:06 PM , 2024-02-19 ,
MK3 has two ports:
1) For simultaneously data and power
2) For auxiliary power if the first port is not able to provide adequate power (e.g. a USB-A port)
These are not two separate issues.
Matthew_NI, Product Team, 3:11PM , 2024-02-19 ,
This narrative simply isn't factual. I know how frustrating this is - but please recognize that the shortcoming here is specific to the USB-C implementation in certain hardware, and not the peripherals that are affected by the shortcoming.
As I've stated - it is to do with communication protocols in the chip breaking down, which can affect the transfer of whatever's coming down the pipe (USB-C cable).
Also, we are not talking about a lot of cases. We are talking about a small number of cases handled either here in the forum, or via our customer support channels, or both. The number of unaffected customers is exponentially larger.
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@PoorFellow Funny: the mk2 models never had these kinds of problems and communicated/functioned quite well with prior USB interfaces. I'm therefore still going to point fingers toward NI for rushing this product out to the market before these issues had been identified. And I can't really believe that we're talking about a 'small number of cases'. That's my opinion, of course, as I don't have any numbers to back it up, but USB interfaces have historically been plug-and-play -- almost universally. This has been anything but that.
Hopefully these threads can be useful to others... but I'm finally ready to start getting some music going here. Cheers and many thanks to all who assisted... it kept me from giving up early.
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